Anyone watching the big game tonight?

[Ralyks]

The context doesn't help

This. Yeah, if she's a fentanyl dealer, good. But the cartoon was COMPLETELY unnecessary.

 

[Drew]

You should not look like a nazi for the car you choose to buy.

Terrorism is a word that exists in dictionaries and is fairly applied when it meets those definitions.

You SHOULD not look like a Nazi for the car you choose to buy, exactly. And yet, people keep buying Teslas.

 

[Drew]

I cant write a longer reply from the gym but what a drama queen

They picked up an international student less than two miles up the road from my old place two nights ago, voided her visa. and shipped her off to - for now - Louisiana overnight, in violation of a judge's order that any ICE arrests in Massachusetts must be held in-state for at least 48 hours so the legal basis for the arrest could be ascertained. And there WAS no legal basis - Rubio in his press conference basically said in as many words that they revoked her student visa because they didn't agree with her beliefs.

You can think Steven C is a "drama queen" for being concerned about extrajudicial arrests and deportations... but they ARE happening, and the line between a student legally in the country on a student visa and a legal US citizen is very, very, very thin, when due process is being ignored.

Again, I'm not saying I support someone throwing a Molotov cocktail at a Tesla dealership... but, like, when the Trump administration is showing zero regard for the law in order to consolidate power, it's a little disingenuous to expect the opposition to be law-abiding, as well, without at least stopping to note the hypocrisy.

 

[profwoot]

Regarding the "terrorism" debate, it's important to keep in mind that the actual definition of the word isn't what's at issue. What's at issue is that the US under Bush II worked very hard to define the term to selectively refer to foreign enemies carrying out bombings and other large-scale attacks against Americans. Despite white conservatives having perpetrated far more terror attacks than anyone else since 9/11, that term is still heavily associated with Islamist suicide bombers and such. So when Trump's gang tries to apply it to anti-Tesla protesters now, they're specifically evoking that association in order to manipulate the discourse. If "terrorist" were applied to all who actually fit the definition, the word itself wouldn't have nearly the power it does. That's why calling these people terrorists is wrong.

 

[Drew]

Pro, anti, or indifferent, the public is the public. I don't think an Elon supporter who's car gets keyed is going to suddenly turn on a dime. I think if anything, this is just going to galvanize stronger support. Also worth noting some of the places being hit are service centers, and are thus filled with cars that are already sold and privately owned. Again, I get the attackers' rationale, I just don't think it's ultimately going to do anybody any good.

But I think a lot of people who are merely neutral to lukewarm on Musk are probably going to think twice before buying a Tesla, because they don't want their car keyed. And, as shitty as that is, he's the richest man in the world and his net worth has now fallen about 50% for it, and considering he's not someone we can just vote out in the next election, I guess you have to understand people using what tools they have.

 

[Moongrum]

This. Yeah, if she's a fentanyl dealer, good. But the cartoon was COMPLETELY unnecessary.

fwiw (I feel like I should really stop trying to add 'context') someone in one of the replies said something like "ghibli is not for the right" which I think means that the image was generated with chatgpt's ghibli filter which seems to kind of become a topical thing at the moment. so even more "memes"
I wanted to add this, because whoever is running the twitter account seems to be the same kind of person as the elon-musk-doge-bigballs-they-tried-to-make-memes-illegal-archetype. so just another drop in the pissbucket that is this whole mess of a presidency.
now that I think about it, I wouldn't be surprised if elon posts to that account.

 

[nightflameauto]

Please tell me isn't real
View attachment 160230

it's real:
Not to defend it, but your screenshot is missing context. they didn't just randomly tweet a cartoon of a brown person being arrested/deported
They arrested a person who they say is a fentanyl dealer, and that's a caricature of them, it's in the same tweet.
having to scroll through that, I learned that the WhiteHouse twitter tweets a lot of memes actually.

Sadly, this post comes off defensive even if you didn't intend to defend it.

The context doesn't help

The context actually makes it much, much worse. Even if this were a person that went on a baby killing spree and the public at large was cheering at their arrest, popping into the current filter du-jour for an official government post is about as callous and ugly a thing as you could do as an official government representative. And god best hope it's only official government representatives posting to that account.

The ever-expanding definition of terrorism is actually one of the more frightening aspects of the current and several past administrations. Trump hasn't just hinted at, but has actually outright said that protests against him or his people is terrorism. Even just standing there with a sign he doesn't like is now terrorism in his mind. And we all know terrorists don't deserve any form of due process, right? This is the slippery slope that Trump is standing at the top of with buckets of olive oil in hand. Do we really wanna let him get by with it?

 

[Riff the Road Dog]

But isnt that exactly what “vote with your wallet” is?

Glad somebody finally said it. It's the only puny bit of power a regular individual has in this world. Also, the personal is political.

 

[MetalDestroyer]

Glad somebody finally said it. It's the only puny bit of power a regular individual has in this world.

Elon has sued many ex-advertisers for leaving twitter and now he's the president, so we actually might lose this right too

 

[JDB123]

 

[narad]

Is that the argument you're countering? I didn't catch that to be the point Drew or StevenC were making explicitly.

I was reply to Drew or StevenC, but to @spawnofthesith, so it's a separate but related thread. I was arguing against the idea that the fires at Tesla dealerships do not qualify as terrorism, and that people are seriously on the hook for buying products from companies that have a bad CEO or some bad policy or whatever else there is to complain about them.

Too many posts in the time to get back here, but re: drama queen, I think people are focusing on the wrong thing. You want people to not be disappeared, and you're focusing on the fact that Trump has tried to label people throwing molotovs at Tesla dealerships as domestic terrorists. They probably are. Should you be deported for stating a political belief that does not line up with the current administration? No. We shouldn't twist words to not call things what they are, we should argue about the constitutionality of the actions of the administration, which is currently like executive branch run rampant. The thought like Trump needs to call things this to have ICE deport people... they're already deporting people without cause. He violates standard practice daily -- the way he talks about Teslas burning is not going to be the lynchpin to accomplishing his political goals and it's silly to present it as such.

There's also a sort of element of entitlement generally though. You're going to come to America and be vocal in taking stances against positions held by the administration (which admittedly was not so bad under Biden, but it should be clear where Trump stands)? You're just asking for trouble. I'm here in Japan. I don't agree with much of the government stuff, but I stfu on that front because I'm one moderate police encounter away from deportation and I also need my visa renewed periodically and I don't doubt the eventual ability of the administration to compile a list of this and use it against me.

 

[DarkstarII]

I would like to extend cudos to @narad for offering very well-written and insightful arguments/debate on a lot of heated topics. I know I don't offer much in the way of debate, as my views aren't going to change minds or win hearts, but Narad is really offering a mature discussion and analysis during crazy times.

 

[StevenC]

I will accept @narad's apology in the form of a UV77RE

 

[narad]

I would like to extend cudos to @narad for offering very well-written and insightful arguments/debate on a lot of heated topics. I know I don't offer much in the way of debate, as my views aren't going to change minds or win hearts, but Narad is really offering a mature discussion and analysis during crazy times.

I agree with the sentiment but you've killed me

 

[DarkstarII]

I'm not saying you're on my side of the political spectrum, I'm just offering praise for the quality of discussion you bring to the thread. I know you're not necessarily on my side (certainly not on most political topics), I just appreciate your mature discussion and discourse.

 

[narad]

I will accept @narad's apology in the form of a UV77RE

I think you're going to have to settle for a mattress

 

[Randy]

The thought like Trump needs to call things this to have ICE deport people... they're already deporting people without cause. He violates standard practice daily -- the way he talks about Teslas burning is not going to be the lynchpin to accomplishing his political goals and it's silly to present it as such.

Gonna still have to disagree here. I find the current crop of deportations to be extrajudicial, potentially illegal but at least they're *mostly* on the ground of a semi legal base, like committing a violent crime or being here illegally in the first place.

It would be hard not to see deporting people for protesting a fuckin car company as an escalation, but I'll plunk down 100 internets you'll see it in the next week or two.

 

[ElysianGuitars]

I would like to extend cudos to @narad for offering very well-written and insightful arguments/debate on a lot of heated topics. I know I don't offer much in the way of debate, as my views aren't going to change minds or win hearts, but Narad is really offering a mature discussion and analysis during crazy times.

Kumbaya is cool and all, but the way you post makes this post too funny.

 

[Drew]

I was reply to Drew or StevenC, but to @spawnofthesith, so it's a separate but related thread. I was arguing against the idea that the fires at Tesla dealerships do not qualify as terrorism, and that people are seriously on the hook for buying products from companies that have a bad CEO or some bad policy or whatever else there is to complain about them.

Too many posts in the time to get back here, but re: drama queen, I think people are focusing on the wrong thing. You want people to not be disappeared, and you're focusing on the fact that Trump has tried to label people throwing molotovs at Tesla dealerships as domestic terrorists. They probably are. Should you be deported for stating a political belief that does not line up with the current administration? No. We shouldn't twist words to not call things what they are, we should argue about the constitutionality of the actions of the administration, which is currently like executive branch run rampant. The thought like Trump needs to call things this to have ICE deport people... they're already deporting people without cause. He violates standard practice daily -- the way he talks about Teslas burning is not going to be the lynchpin to accomplishing his political goals and it's silly to present it as such.

There's also a sort of element of entitlement generally though. You're going to come to America and be vocal in taking stances against positions held by the administration (which admittedly was not so bad under Biden, but it should be clear where Trump stands)? You're just asking for trouble. I'm here in Japan. I don't agree with much of the government stuff, but I stfu on that front because I'm one moderate police encounter away from deportation and I also need my visa renewed periodically and I don't doubt the eventual ability of the administration to compile a list of this and use it against me.

I think my disagreement here comes down to two fairly simple observations.

"Terrorism" is almost entirely a matter of perspective. If the destruction of personal property is terrorism, then the Boston Tea Party was a terrorist act. The battle of Lexington and Concord certainly was an act of terrorism, we weren't even civil about it, we got behind stone walls and shot at redcoats with the element of surprise. Yet I don't think too many people would call the American Revolution an act of terrorism against the British crown. The victors write history... but also what you're fighting for matters.

And maybe your experience in Japan has colored your world view, but what you call "entitlement" and "asking for trouble" is a right enshrined in the US Constitution. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." That's pretty categorical. And, while the intersection between constitutional rights and visa renewal does get a little more grey, in no instances does that empower the government to seize someone in the US on a student visa and arrest them and revoke their visa, without going through due process, which is a violation of the 4th and 5th amendments.

 

[Randy]

I think my disagreement here comes down to two fairly simple observations.

"Terrorism" is almost entirely a matter of perspective. If the destruction of personal property is terrorism, then the Boston Tea Party was a terrorist act. The battle of Lexington and Concord certainly was an act of terrorism, we weren't even civil about it, we got behind stone walls and shot at redcoats with the element of surprise. Yet I don't think too many people would call the American Revolution an act of terrorism against the British crown. The victors write history... but also what you're fighting for matters.

And maybe your experience in Japan has colored your world view, but what you call "entitlement" and "asking for trouble" is a right enshrined in the US Constitution. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." That's pretty categorical. And, while the intersection between constitutional rights and visa renewal does get a little more grey, in no instances does that empower the government to seize someone in the US on a student visa and arrest them and revoke their visa, without going through due process, which is a violation of the 4th and 5th amendments.

I've got to imagine somewhere in the justification they're going to be arguing the Constitution and Bill of Rights don't apply to non citizens?