Anyone watching the big game tonight?

[narad]

I think the issue is that the firebombing is going on in tandem with totally legal, but well organized non-violent protests. And the language of the the USAG and Trump's surrogates seem to keep conflating the two with one another, which turns into threats against protests or any anti-Musk speech. That's the slippery slope part.

I think basing discussion around how Trumpers structure their mental arguments is probably not super productive. I'm not even miffed that Teslas are being burned, so long as people are not being hurt. It's just clear to me that there's a really strong case for labeling such acts as domestic terrorism. That shouldn't have any bearing on protests.

Yes and no, as I’m understanding it. People spray painting graffiti etc. are getting lumped in with Molotov cocktails folks


Additionally, as far as “letter of the law” goes most legal definitions of terrorism as far as individually states go (at least least those that I’ve actually looked into so far) specify a clause of “murder, assassination, or kidnapping” are necessary to be defined as terrorism. Which to my knowledge has not occurred in any instance

I think you should look into that again. I think you've mixed up necessary and sufficient conditions. I don't believe any state necessitates murder/assassination/kidnapping for something to be labeled terrorism.

Furthermore, Musk/tesla are not elected officials nor government entities, which kind of excludes true “politics” getting to enter the chat. despite the fact he’s running the government currently

Also not relevant. It is politics regardless of whether someone takes a government paycheck on it.

 

[spawnofthesith]

@narad I’m at a work event tonight and would like to provide a much more detailed and well thought out response tomorrow, but for now I would posit a question of where you think the line is drawn. I believe I mentioned this at the very beginning of the thread but on election night a few units on my floor had their pride flags pretty aggressively vandalized/destroyed. This is obviously a very targeted act of destructive vandalism with political motives with no impact on human life. Somewhere in the middle of this thread I was also providing updates about vandalism against an apartment displaying swastikas in their window on a very prominate downtown street. Do you also feel like either of these vandalism crimes should qualify as domestic terrorism?

 

[narad]

@narad I’m at a work event tonight and would like to provide a much more detailed and well thought out response tomorrow, but for now I would posit a question of where you think the line is drawn. I believe I mentioned this at the very beginning of the thread but on election night a few units on my floor had their pride flags pretty aggressively vandalized/destroyed. This is obviously a very targeted act of destructive vandalism with political motives with no impact on human life. Somewhere in the middle of this thread I was also providing updates about vandalism against an apartment displaying swastikas in their window on a very prominate downtown street. Do you also feel like either of these vandalism crimes should qualify as domestic terrorism?

Well I mean, you shouldn't be asking me. I'm just a random guy. Where I think this -should- fall is not important, only where this would fall based on precedent and how the law is stated. In this case, I have no clue because they are so niche and in the gray area between vandalism, hate crimes, and terrorism. Personally though, I wouldn't characterize the destruction of people's pride flags as seeking to accomplish a political goal, and I wouldn't expect a judge to either.

 

[StevenC]

For a society to function properly, it needs to be unpopular to be a Nazi in public.

If you buy a Tesla today, you look like a Nazi and people should be afraid of looking like a Nazi.

Terrorism is a word that authoritarians use to quash resistance.

 

[narad]

For a society to function properly, it needs to be unpopular to be a Nazi in public.

If you buy a Tesla today, you look like a Nazi and people should be afraid of looking like a Nazi.

Terrorism is a word that authoritarians use to quash resistance.

You should not look like a nazi for the car you choose to buy.

Terrorism is a word that exists in dictionaries and is fairly applied when it meets those definitions.

 

[budda]

You should not look like a nazi for the car you choose to buy.

Terrorism is a word that exists in dictionaries and is fairly applied when it meets those definitions.

If the car you choose in 2025 is linked to someone who at minimum affiliates with Nazis, how else should it be interpreted?

Something something volkswagen, mercedes benz, ford, circa 1940.

 

[narad]

If the car you choose in 2025 is linked to someone who at minimum affiliates with Nazis, how else should it be interpreted?

Something something volkswagen, mercedes benz, ford, circa 1940.

You can just want the product. Not every purchase is a vote of support to every action of its CEO, and I'd hate to see where we could take that logic if we scrutinized every purchase everyone made through the lens of what the CEO of the products values.

The bottom line is people are arguing about this not being terrorism because we politically align with the people torching Teslas, or shooting CEOs, etc. Blowing up some Teslas to make a political statement is no different from blowing up the 9/11 memorial or some such. It's just that for once we agree with the principles behind it.

 

[USMarine75]

You can just want the product. Not every purchase is a vote of support to every action of its CEO, and I'd hate to see where we could take that logic if we scrutinized every purchase everyone made through the lens of what the CEO of the products values.

The bottom line is people are arguing about this not being terrorism because we politically align with the people torching Teslas, or shooting CEOs, etc. Blowing up some Teslas to make a political statement is no different from blowing up the 9/11 memorial or some such.

Yeah I'm trying to figure this out.

How can you tell whether someone is a fascist MAGA douche that bought their Tesla in 2025, or an LGBTQ Bernie-Bro that bought their Tesla in 2020?

 

[budda]

You can just want the product. Not every purchase is a vote of support to every action of its CEO, and I'd hate to see where we could take that logic if we scrutinized every purchase everyone made through the lens of what the CEO of the products values.

The bottom line is people are arguing about this not being terrorism because we politically align with the people torching Teslas, or shooting CEOs, etc. Blowing up some Teslas to make a political statement is no different from blowing up the 9/11 memorial or some such. It's just that for once we agree with the principles behind it.

But isnt that exactly what “vote with your wallet” is? Isnt that why its suggested not to support Amazon, Nestle, etc? Because whether or not you meant to, you’re supporting someone you shouldnt? And imo people should scrutinize their spending through the ceo/business lens, they’d be making informed purchases and said awful companies would maybe have less clout to be awful with

And what happens if the definition of terrorism is expanded to benefit the people doing the most actual harm? Is it only terrorism if its a member of the public vs official entity? Since govt services are kidnapping people and jailing without due process etc.

Yeah I'm trying to figure this out.

How can you tell whether someone is a fascist MAGA douche that bought their Tesla in 2025, or an LGBTQ Bernie-Bro that bought their Tesla in 2020?

View attachment 160225

As Drew said, better make sure you have the stickers. Though the cybertruck is obvious to most I’d say.

 

[narad]

But isnt that exactly what “vote with your wallet” is?

Vote with your wallet is supposed to be something you can do, not a mandate that fairly invites violence from those who have opposing views. I'm not going to stand out in front of Chick-fil-A and club all the people going in since it's so obvious that they want to kill LGBT people -- I mean, why else in this day and age would someone buy that chicken sandwich when they could eat soylent??

Again, it's just an absolutely silly thing to start equating someone's purchases with the ethics of the leadership of the companies who make those things, as it guarantees that everyone's an asshole.

Like I personally love seeing the Tesla stock plummet, seeing the Tesla bro asshats having the prestige of their car turned into a stigma, and seeing Elon get all panicky in interviews. The cultural turn against Tesla ... as an individual I can drink up those tears all day. But as a society, looking at people who buy those things and attacking them / destroying their property is a terrible thing that I would feel obligated to stop if I was in a position of governmental power.

 

[StevenC]

You can just want the product. Not every purchase is a vote of support to every action of its CEO, and I'd hate to see where we could take that logic if we scrutinized every purchase everyone made through the lens of what the CEO of the products values.

The bottom line is people are arguing about this not being terrorism because we politically align with the people torching Teslas, or shooting CEOs, etc. Blowing up some Teslas to make a political statement is no different from blowing up the 9/11 memorial or some such. It's just that for once we agree with the principles behind it.

Because BDS movements work, and that's why fascists always complain about BDS movements being "illegal".

 

[narad]

Because BDS movements work, and that's why fascists always complain about BDS movements being "illegal".

Participating in your BDS movement does not make anyone a nazi any more than not going to your rally, or donating to your approved charity.

People are burning alive in Teslas when they can't open the doors post-crash, so there's not a lot of balanced pros/cons here. But for the sake of an ethical dilemma, consider if Teslas were far better for the environment than any competitor, and were the safest cars on the road, and also the cheapest. Apply same logic.

 

[budda]

maybe thats my point - everyone is an asshole to varying degrees and if we get lit up about it, maybe that moves the needle to empathy and understanding by force (being gentle is not always successful). Think of it like the warnings on cigarettes. You’re shown in detail part of what happens, so its very much so “do i want to be that person?”

Lets hand out signs to everyone walking into chic fil a, ordering with prime, choosing an aero chocolate bar. Lets take power away from these companies that inflict the most damage by making sure the awareness is maxed out. See what changes after that. In all those examples, theres alternate choices.

I know @narad doesnt equate garbage thrown at a cybertruck with slurs being yelled at someone for not being white, but one is property and one is a person. Maybe the attack on property should be seen as less concerning?

Its not even 7am so watch for future replies

 

[Randy]

Yeah I'm trying to figure this out.

How can you tell whether someone is a fascist MAGA douche that bought their Tesla in 2025, or an LGBTQ Bernie-Bro that bought their Tesla in 2020?

Eh, correction. Most Tesla owners were pieces of shit before this. Musk and that company have been problematic for long enough. Also as a classist argument, there's a difference between people that buy a Model X Plaid and someone that buys an Ioniq.

 

[Randy]

Participating in your BDS movement does not make anyone a nazi any more than not going to your rally, or donating to your approved charity.

People are burning alive in Teslas when they can't open the doors post-crash, so there's not a lot of balanced pros/cons here. But for the sake of an ethical dilemma, consider if Teslas were far better for the environment than any competitor, and were the safest cars on the road, and also the cheapest. Apply same logic.

I'd probably give more credit to this whole crusade if you didn't say you want a Cybertruck like a week ago. Hard not to interpret this whole thing through that lens.

 

[Randy]

I think basing discussion around how Trumpers structure their mental arguments is probably not super productive. I'm not even miffed that Teslas are being burned, so long as people are not being hurt. It's just clear to me that there's a really strong case for labeling such acts as domestic terrorism. That shouldn't have any bearing on protests.

Beep beep beep lets back up to this one again for a second. "Trumpers structuring their mental argument" you mean the president and the Attorney General threatening to jail people for protesting Tesla dealerships after they've already scooped people off the street for protesting Gaza? The fuck are you on. Thats the whole point.

 

[StevenC]

Participating in your BDS movement does not make anyone a nazi any more than not going to your rally, or donating to your approved charity.

People are burning alive in Teslas when they can't open the doors post-crash, so there's not a lot of balanced pros/cons here. But for the sake of an ethical dilemma, consider if Teslas were far better for the environment than any competitor, and were the safest cars on the road, and also the cheapest. Apply same logic.

Yeah, if Teslas were good cars and really safe and not run by a Nazi, then yeah I wouldn't have a problem with them.

But they're bad cars people buy to show off when better cars are available. And they're run by a Nazi and there are other non Nazi companies.

If my nan had wheels and all that.

 

[StevenC]

maybe thats my point - everyone is an asshole to varying degrees and if we get lit up about it, maybe that moves the needle to empathy and understanding by force (being gentle is not always successful). Think of it like the warnings on cigarettes. You’re shown in detail part of what happens, so its very much so “do i want to be that person?”

Fascists are pushing the Overton Window right, we've gotta pull it the other way.

 

[narad]

I'd probably give more credit to this whole crusade if you didn't say you want a Cybertruck like a week ago. Hard not to interpret this whole thing through that lens.

But does that really make sense? My argument is that there are people who are not nazis that might still want to buy a Tesla -- that's me. If you throw a rock at my car, you're throwing a rock at someone that hates Elon Musk, because you hate Elon Musk.

But also, it's kinda dumb to really try to make that like a personal bias. Obviously, I'm in Japan, so (a) Japan doesn't know about this drama, (b) Japan wouldn't care about this drama, (c) Japanese would look at people attacking people for their choice of car and see it only as the type of barbaric behavior that occurs in the inferior countries outside of Japan. Also (d) I'm not seriously considering buying a car, let alone a Cyber Truck, (e) I'd buy an NSX before I bought a Tesla, (f) I don't have the money for it, (g) I'm unemployed, so not likely to have the money for it any time soon. So frankly it's hard to take this notion of a "skin in the game" bias very seriously.

Beep beep beep lets back up to this one again for a second. "Trumpers structuring their mental argument" you mean the president and the Attorney General threatening to jail people for protesting Tesla dealerships after they've already scooped people off the street for protesting Gaza? The fuck are you on. Thats the whole point.

That's not a topic I'm discussing. Protesting is protesting, and should not be called terrorism. Blowing up cars to make a political point is terrorism, and it's fair to call it that. It's not difficult to separate the two.

Yeah, if Teslas were good cars and really safe and not run by a Nazi, then yeah I wouldn't have a problem with them.

That's not the point. If they're good cars and really safe AND run by a nazi, that's where the dilemma becomes more salient. It's always there though -- someone can just prefer the Tesla over other cars for a variety of other reasons.

 

[ArtDecade]

We should just be grateful that Musk designs cars that look like total garbage. It is easy to take a hard pass on the MC Hammer pants of automobiles.