Israel-Palestine escalation live: Gaza under bombardment after Hamas attack
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Louis Cypher
Well-Known Member
Jesus Christ..... They should "give up and move on" this isn't a fcuking argument between neighbours over who's taking up 4 or 5 inches of the others back garden! Do you really believe what you're typing or are you just trolling? By all means explain what that actually means give up and move on? What does "move on" mean, literally move out of the land? If so then move to where exactly? Should any peoples or country fighting a military superior force give up and move on? Really is a lonely furrow you are digging in this thread
please don't
narad
Progressive metal and politics
I mean move on as in literally move. Or adopt some properly peaceful government after Hamas is defeated, if they are defeated. Otherwise, what -- another 4-5 more generations of tit-for-tat violence? What has that strategy brought so far?
Yikes.
soliloquy
Well-Known Member
so...essentially what you're saying is that 'White Man' should live in Japan, China, India, Hong Kong, South East Asia, ALL OF AFRICA, all of the Americas and pretty much every other part of the world because a superior colonizing army invaded and killed the local population? Where is that population to move to? Its their home to begin with. An invasive army should never have been invading in the first place.
That is not a solution.
Louis Cypher
Well-Known Member
As I said, move where exactly? By moving out of their homeland as they see it, what 2million + people become refugees? Qatar gonna take 2m people? or Egypt? or should they spread across the world? I don't see countries like the US or UK or the EU jumping up since Oct to offer them homes and safety in the same way they did Ukrainians
Assuming then in your other solution that they stay and Hamas is defeated/rejected and a peaceful goverment is formed, how does that then work with the current Israeli stance on Palestine that as StevenC said earlier, Israel will still believe that they have no right to that territory and that its Israel's to take if thats by force and at any palestian cost then so be it. You previously said Palestine has nothign to offer Israel in regards to suing for peace or peace talks and Israel would no longer have to worry about attacks from Hamas
Under either of your solutions Israel gets what its wants and takes over Gaza. Would have saved a lot of pages of arguing if you just said in the first place that was what you were in favour of
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soliloquy
Well-Known Member
just to add to this, why is the West Bank Palestinians being attacked?
Israel isn't against Hamas, as they claim to be. Their actions are more against Palestine, and are essentially using Hamas as an excuse.
StevenC
Needs a hobby
You've described an ethnic cleansing or genocide.
narad
Progressive metal and politics
? Well, (a) it's not about race at all. (b) these other countries live in peace with each other. So I don't see where you're going with this.
For instance, I support Ukraine in the current conflict there. It's their homeland and they're fighting for it, and doing surprisingly well. But had Ukraine sat there and fired missiles at Russia and forced Russia to build up a better defense while just tolerating these attacks, until the Ukrainian government launched a raid into Russia and killed a bunch of citizens, I could understand why the Russian government would say, enough is enough, we actually have the power to prevent this nation from attacking us, so we will. This is not really a new development in how human societies conduct themselves. I will never really understand why a nation would constantly attack a neighboring country with the power to destroy you, and think things will turn out for the better.
As to where, that's just logistics.
I'm not saying Israel should force them all to leave. I'm saying that when your life sucks, for generations, you should consider what you're suffering for. Had their ancestors had left, there would have been better lives for the generations from then to now. At this point any Palestinian win, which are limited as is, is a phyrric victory.
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StevenC
Needs a hobby
IIRC imperialism is objectively bad?
StevenC
Needs a hobby
narad
Progressive metal and politics
I'm failing to see the point. That's worth it?
StevenC
Needs a hobby
The point is you've got everything backwards.
Palestinians didn't just start bombing Israelis one day. Israelis started turning up at Palestinian homes, forcing them out of them and forcibly moving them to different places. Israel started annexing parts of Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt before any of the wars. Then Israel started annexing more Palestinian territory, kicking people out of their houses at gun point, moving them to smaller and smaller Palestinian areas.
Then Palestinian militias started to fight back.
And this all happened after WWII. This is a very modern conflict started by zionists deciding Palestine belonged to them and Arabs needed to leave.
Jewish & Non-Jewish Population of Israel/Palestine (1517-Present)
Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.
www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org Look at what happened between 1947 and 1948.
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Russian's whole thing at the moment is "Israel is annexing Palestine with US consent, why can't we annex Ukraine?". It's a foreign policy disaster for the USA.
StevenC
Needs a hobby
Missed this because of an edit.
Um, their lives suck because of the Israeli state. Israel is making the decision a) live under severe oppression or b) leave.
In case you're wondering where they got this strategy from:
Act for the Settlement of Ireland 1652 - Wikipedia
narad
Progressive metal and politics
The point is you've got everything backwards.
Palestinians didn't just start bombing Israelis one day. Israelis started turning up at Palestinian homes, forcing them out of them and forcibly moving them to different places. Israel started annexing parts of Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt before any of the wars. Then Israel started annexing more Palestinian territory, kicking people out of their houses at gun point, moving them to smaller and smaller Palestinian areas.
Then Palestinian militias started to fight back.
And this all happened after WWII. This is a very modern conflict started by zionists deciding Palestine belonged to them and Arabs needed to leave.
Jewish & Non-Jewish Population of Israel/Palestine (1517-Present)
Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.
Look at what happened between 1947 and 1948.
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Russian's whole thing at the moment is "Israel is annexing Palestine with US consent, why can't we annex Ukraine?". It's a foreign policy disaster for the USA.
I too have read the wikipedia page. My point is that it is irrelevant what initial animosities originated the conflict, and no, I don't believe it was unilateral. The people you are referencing are dead or soon to be. I said in a post presumably weeks ago, that it made no sense to try to tit-for-tat your way back to some point of origin and say, "Ha! Here! It started here!" as if it would have any bearing on what a prudent decision would be today. Even if Israel in 1950 were pure evil, it doesn't today have any bearing on what the smartest choices are for the people involved.
And if you care about the actual lives of the Palestinians, you can't sit there and say another 30 years of lobbing missiles while under heavy sanctions sounds like a nice life for anyone involved. But that is exactly where we're heading unless Hamas is defeated / Gazans establish a better government with true aspirations for peace (in which case they'll still have to tolerate some injustice / or leave. Any fourth options seems to depend heavily on the benevolence of the Israeli government (or the Israeli people electing a new government in protest of the situation -- which like, you achieve better if you're not kidnapping and killing them).
soliloquy
Well-Known Member
okay...i'll humor your logic here:
A) Israel is being funded by US, Canada, UK and god know what other countries. It is an unfair advantage that Israel has over Palestine. The advantage that Israel could have had had they had NO international support, similar to Palestine, then okay, apples to apples, and then a 'war' could have been fought. But this was never a war. Even back then during the 7 day war, it was never a fair fight. When Israel is there, it is there because the UN/UK drew up a piece of land for them to be there.
B ) When Israel is 'attacking' Palestine, it isn't just Israel, but USA/Canada/Western World. Similarly to how Ukraine isn't fighting alone. It is heavily being funded by USA/Canada and rest of the western world. The difference is that Russia has a lot of other resources to draw from to continue this war of theirs. They have endless amount of people they can get to fight this war. Ukraine is not as powerful as Russia on its own. But through proxy wars, and with USA, Canada, UK, France, Germany etc helping Ukraine, Ukraine can fight back. Palestine does not have that option. Why? Because whatever funds that are coming that 'that piece of land' theoretically speaking, should be for 2 people, yet it isnt. If the western world was funding/supporting Palestine JUST as much as Israel, allowing both to stand on equal grounds, and force Israel to share their resources, and rights and stop participating in an apartheid....there would be equal grounds for peace to be achieved. That is an unfair advantage that Israel has.
C) Due to the western world supporting a genocide, this is modern day colonialism. You either support colonization and ethnic cleansing and genocide and slavery of previous world powers....or you dont. You dont split hair under various circumstances.
D) How did the Jewish community end up in Europe, Central Asia, Russia, Africa etc? Is it because...they...left? If they left, they should have abandoned that land to begin with. Your logic is not sound because Jewish people left to build diasporas in various other parts of the world. Because they left, as per your logic, they have no claims over that land under any circumstances. We circle back to modern day colonialism. Because Jews were being targeted for centuries in Russia, Europe, Central Asia, and other parts of the world prior to WW2. But hey, they 'could have left' those parts of the world too...
Narad, please, I know you are capable of seeing logic through your own statements.
narad
Progressive metal and politics
Is it telling that when the moderators participated in this thread, their posts were pro-Palestine if anything?
StevenC
Needs a hobby
I give up.
When people are oppressed for decades they resort to extremes. Saying Palestinians should stop shooting missiles is like saying black people in America should stop doing crime. They aren't behaving that way because it's in their nature; they're behaving that way because the system removes every other option.
This is systemic racism 101.
The secret fourth solution is that we make it unviable for western politicians to support Israel's apartheid, so they force Israel to seek a proper solution.
When people are oppressed for decades they resort to extremes. Saying Palestinians should stop shooting missiles is like saying black people in America should stop doing crime. They aren't behaving that way because it's in their nature; they're behaving that way because the system removes every other option.
This is systemic racism 101.
The secret fourth solution is that we make it unviable for western politicians to support Israel's apartheid, so they force Israel to seek a proper solution.
The only person who can dish out bans is the admin, Alex.
Good thing you reported the problem...oh wait.
*crickets*
