Israel-Palestine escalation live: Gaza under bombardment after Hamas attack

[soliloquy]

I think your biases are wagging the dog here. I can't much imagine a clearer example of starting with a hypothesis and trying to find an opinion to validate it.

Where are you getting your news? None of the prisoners are killers. They're typically crimes against Israel.

From folks in Israel.
As per them, they are "terrified" of the release of these 150 so called "criminals/rapists/serial killers" as some of them are going to Jerusalem, where they will be free to "repeat the same rape/killing/crime.

My bias here is that these are women and children. Historically speaking, this group is not known to be rapists, killers, or...really any form of threat.

So I'm confused why were they in jail to begin with? What crimes did they commit to warrant being arrested? Were they charged with accuracy under the same court system that is used for the rest of Israel? Or were they charged in military court? Or were they even formally charged?

Once again, I'm not trying to be validated here. I genuinely don't understand this.

When the news initially broke out that 150 for 50 is being exchanged, I was thinking that that's progress...but now folks in Israel are saying otherwise and that's why I'm confused.

 

[narad]

From folks in Israel.
As per them, they are "terrified" of the release of these 150 so called "criminals/rapists/serial killers" as some of them are going to Jerusalem, where they will be free to "repeat the same rape/killing/crime.

My bias here is that these are women and children. Historically speaking, this group is not known to be rapists, killers, or...really any form of threat.

So I'm confused why were they in jail to begin with? What crimes did they commit to warrant being arrested? Were they charged with accuracy under the same court system that is used for the rest of Israel? Or were they charged in military court? Or were they even formally charged?

Once again, I'm not trying to be validated here. I genuinely don't understand this.

When the news initially broke out that 150 for 50 is being exchanged, I was thinking that that's progress...but now folks in Israel are saying otherwise and that's why I'm confused.

No, as I said, there are no killers among the prisoners being released. This is why I asked where you are getting your news. You read Al Jazeera, then the Times of Israel, then the NYT, and figure you've got a fair sampling of different viewpoints and the truth is somewhere in between. None of these outlets say anything about these prisoners being killers or rapists, and in fact, not release any prisoners guilty of murder is one of the key points of the arrangement.

 

[soliloquy]

No, as I said, there are no killers among the prisoners being released. This is why I asked where you are getting your news. You read Al Jazeera, then the Times of Israel, then the NYT, and figure you've got a fair sampling of different viewpoints and the truth is somewhere in between. None of these outlets say anything about these prisoners being killers or rapists, and in fact, not release any prisoners guilty of murder is one of the key points of the arrangement.

my sample is all of those, plus the local demographics of the affected areas via twitter/reddit/forums etc.

sure, local demographics will be heavily influenced with propaganda.

and exactly as you mentioned 'truth is somewhere in between'. My approach goes one step further with 'where this is smoke, there maybe fire'. If the local demographic is the ONLY one claiming that this group of people who are being released are rapists/murderers etc....why are they the only ones claiming this when no other news outlet is providing this?

my understanding is just that. These are NOT serious offenses that these 150 committed. These are not 'prisoners' as per media. These are hostages. A better term to call this would be a hostage exchange, not a prisoner exchange.

guess thats what i'm battling here. How can people be called prisoners, if they didn't commit a crime that would fit their title of being prisoners.


but thank you for helping me understand this better.

 

[narad]

my sample is all of those, plus the local demographics of the affected areas via twitter/reddit/forums etc.

sure, local demographics will be heavily influenced with propaganda.

and exactly as you mentioned 'truth is somewhere in between'. My approach goes one step further with 'where this is smoke, there maybe fire'. If the local demographic is the ONLY one claiming that this group of people who are being released are rapists/murderers etc....why are they the only ones claiming this when no other news outlet is providing this?

Why did 15% of Americans believe in QAnon? And how vocal is that demographic on Twitter/Reddit/Forums?

I can sympathize with the intent, but it's just asking for fringe garbage from the loudest and craziest parts of the populace.

 

[Captain Shoggoth]

I envy the "optimism" of those debating the minutiae of the 'evidence' (or lack thereof) for the offensive at al-Shifa hospital when events like it (targeted bombing of schools, hospitals, UN facilities) have been the modus operandi for every Israeli offensive in Gaza over the past two decades. From where I'm standing there has never been a precondition of sincere justification for the severity of these operations, and never any vaguely proportionate accountability for even the background of occupation or dual-legal-system apartheid in the West Bank, let alone intermittent periods of ultraviolence like the one we're seeing currently.

The offensive is the justification. Any action taken by the Israeli state is de facto 'justified' given the lack of any consequences for it - no honest justification is actually required because there is nobody to be accountable to, nobody to impose sanctions or press charges. The US would be committing strategic suicide by doing so, and any other country would be committing economic suicide by running afoul of the US.

Exactly the same principle as the US in Iraq. People made a song and dance about the WMD stuff being bullshit, people made a song and dance about the atrocities at Abu Ghraib, but it's not as though any of that actually mattered in the end. OK a couple of grunts got court-martialled, but 1 million Iraqis were still dead, thousands tortured for sport, the country's infrastructure was destroyed, militias rounded up boys with the wrong kind of names on the streets of Baghdad... and the oil fields were rendered accessible.

I don't think the people bombing nor the people being bombed care at all about whatever is superficially trotted out as a justification, because the "justifications" are essentially just marketing for a military offensive for which consent has already been manufactured, and the goalposts are always moving. The bombing, the killing, the infrastructural damage and mass displacement ARE the point.

I completely fail to see what is so morally new or different - apart from the sheer scale of death - from Israeli business as usual here.

 

[soliloquy]

Why did 15% of Americans believe in QAnon? And how vocal is that demographic on Twitter/Reddit/Forums?

I can sympathize with the intent, but it's just asking for fringe garbage from the loudest and craziest parts of the populace.

valid point.
though it is mostly garbage, I want to know what that garbage is and where its coming from. sometimes, in its rare occurrences, that garbage has some validity. I was wondering if this is one of those instances.


(Case in point, when the 'freedom protests' in Canada were happening against the covid restrictions, I didn't agree with them, but I understood where they were coming from. In this case, I really dont understand where they are coming from)

 

[ADADAD]

No, as I said, there are no killers among the prisoners being released.

Not for lack of trying.

Palestinian woman disfigured in attempted suicide bomb could be released in hostage deal

Israel could release a Palestinian woman who disfigured herself in an attempted bombing as part of its deal to free hostages captured by Hamas.

www.yahoo.com

"Israel could release a Palestinian woman who disfigured herself in an attempted bombing as part of its deal to free hostages captured by Hamas."
"Among the 13 women adult women on the list, most have been imprisoned for stabbing."
"Also possibly set for release is Nafooz Jad Hammad, who was beginning a 12-year sentence for stabbing her Jewish teacher when she was 14 years old."
"Nafooz Jad Arad Hammad, 16, stabbed Ms Cohen in front of her five children and husband, who was also slightly injured, in 2021."

Go through the names on the list, there are more who were imprisoned for attempted murder, shooting, stabbing, etc.

my understanding is just that. These are NOT serious offenses that these 150 committed. These are not 'prisoners' as per media. These are hostages. A better term to call this would be a hostage exchange, not a prisoner exchange.

guess thats what i'm battling here. How can people be called prisoners, if they didn't commit a crime that would fit their title of being prisoners.

Yeah I guess if your attempt at terrorism didn't kill anyone, only injured (including making the victim permanently disabled), it's not too serious. No harm no foul, right?

 

[Randy]

I mean, exchanging prisoners for hostages at the request of terrorists typically means freeing bad guys yeah.

 

[StevenC]

https://www.ohchr.org/en/news/2023/07/special-rapporteur-says-israels-unlawful-carceral-practices-occupied-palestinian

Says a lot more about how little Israel values Palestinian lives tbh

Just a reminder of how many unlawfully detained, innocent Palestinians there are

 

[narad]

https://www.ohchr.org/en/news/2023/07/special-rapporteur-says-israels-unlawful-carceral-practices-occupied-palestinian

Says a lot more about how little Israel values Palestinian lives tbh

Sorry, missed how bad this take was when it was originally posted. Israel releases hundreds of prisoners in exchange for one Israeli, and that's how hard you're going to work to flip it around to again make it an Israel = evil issue?

Headline: "Israel gives cake to Palestinian children"
StevenC: "Yea, but the calories! And anyone in Israel ever hear of early onset diabetes!?"

 

[StevenC]

Sorry, missed how bad this take was when it was originally posted. Israel releases hundreds of prisoners in exchange for one Israeli, and that's how hard you're going to work to flip it around to again make it an Israel = evil issue?

Headline: "Israel gives cake to Palestinian children"
StevenC: "Yea, but the calories! And anyone in Israel ever hear of early onset diabetes!?"

Headline: "Israel illegally detains hundreds of Palestinian children"
narad: "fuck them kids"

 

[Louis Cypher]

Sorry, missed how bad this take was when it was originally posted. Israel releases hundreds of prisoners in exchange for one Israeli, and that's how hard you're going to work to flip it around to again make it an Israel = evil issue?

Headline: "Israel gives cake to Palestinian children"
StevenC: "Yea, but the calories! And anyone in Israel ever hear of early onset diabetes!?"

Headline: "Israel illegally detains hundreds of Palestinian children"
narad: "fuck them kids"

some quotes from that UN report for those who haven't read it.....

"...since 1967, Israel had detained approximately one million Palestinians in the occupied territory, including tens of thousands of children. Currently, there were 5,000 Palestinians in Israeli prisons, including 160 children, and approximately 1,100 of them were detained without charge or trial."

"Israel’s unlawful carceral practices were tantamount to international crimes which warranted an urgent investigation by the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court. All the more as these offences appeared to be part of a plan of ‘de-Palestinisation’ of the territory. This threatened the existence of a people as a national cohesive group."

"(her) report did not condone any acts of violence committed by Palestinians, while living under an unlawful occupation or in their pursuit to end it. However, it must be acknowledged that most Palestinians had been convicted through a series of violations of international law, such as discrimination, persecution, and breaches of due process and for ordinary acts of life and in the exercise of legitimate civil and political rights. A widespread and systematic arbitrary deprivation of liberty of Palestinians was a structural component of their subjugation."

"(Palestinian) Children, liable to imprisonment as of 12 years of age, were treated as inhumanely and lawlessly as adults."

no flipping needed really tbh for anyone that has read the report, unless the United Nations is biase of course? Which is what many Israeli gov officials are claiming along with WHO

Again I'll clarify that me posting the above in no way means I don't feel as equally disgused by Hamas and their actions over the years, however, the above details actions by an elected nation state holding children illegally and without charge or trial purely for the crime of existing

 

[narad]

Headline: "Israel illegally detains hundreds of Palestinian children"
narad: "fuck them kids"

I acknowledge there are a lot of injustices occurring on both sides. You seem blind to any notion of blame falling on both sides, and can only see Israel as Disney-esque villain / Palestine as innocents.

Case in point: if Israel releases hundreds of Palestinians in exchange for one Israeli, it is not a value judgement on lives, it's about what a country is willing to bend to the demands of their enemy to protect their citizens. If Palestine was willing to give up the Israeli for one Palestinian prisoner, it would have gone down that way. That doesn't reflect that Palestinians value Israeli lives above their own. It's flawed logic all around.

 

[Louis Cypher]

"(Palestinian) Children, liable to imprisonment as of 12 years of age, were treated as inhumanely and lawlessly as adults."

Sorry for the double post but seriously anyone who can read this line about how children are being treated by a member state of the UN's goverment and then say "yeah but what about..." really needs to take along hard look in the mirror at themselves

 

[Louis Cypher]

I acknowledge there are a lot of injustices occurring on both sides. You seem blind to any notion of blame falling on both sides, and can only see Israel as Disney-esque villain / Palestine as innocents.

Case in point: if Israel releases hundreds of Palestinians in exchange for one Israeli, it is not a value judgement on lives, it's about what a country is willing to bend to the demands of their enemy to protect their citizens. If Palestine was willing to give up the Israeli for one Palestinian prisoner, it would have gone down that way. That doesn't reflect that Palestinians value Israeli lives above their own. It's flawed logic all around.

Thats not what @StevenC is doing at all, if you've read many of his earlier posts they have equally condemmed Hamas as well as highlight Israel's crimes.
As others have said you seem to be advocating, inadvertantly I'm sure in your attempt at the balance you claim to want, that the Palaestinans in some way deserve whats happening to them because X, Y & Z

Edit: worth saying again
The blame for this is not with Israel and Palestine, the blame on both sides is with Hamas and the right wing Netanyahu goverment. The vast majority of both Israel and Palestine people simply want to live in peace

 

[narad]

Thats not what @StevenC is doing at all, if you've read many of his earlier posts they have equally condemmed Hamas as well as highlight Israel's crimes.
As others have said you seem to be advocating, inadvertantly I'm sure in your attempt at the balance you claim to want, that the Palaestinans in some way deserve whats happening to them because X, Y & Z

Palestinian civilians deserve what's happening to the extent that Israeli citizens deserve what's happening to them.

And yea, I know exactly what StevenC is doing, because I quoted him saying exactly what I'm commenting on. Israel doesn't value Palestinian lives less because they're willing to do an imbalanced prisoner trade. That doesn't make any sense.

 

[Louis Cypher]

Palestinian civilians deserve what's happening to the extent that Israeli citizens deserve what's happening to them.

As in neither of them deserve whats happening to them? I'm not sure thats what you mean based on previous posts of yours

And yea, I know exactly what StevenC is doing, because I quoted him saying exactly what I'm commenting on. Israel doesn't value Palestinian lives less because they're willing to do an imbalanced prisoner trade. That doesn't make any sense.

Of course it makes sense, read the UN report and that pretty much defines how Israel values Palestians lives. plus your point actually makes no sense, Israel is paying more in prisoners so to speak to release less Israeli hostages, that does look like an Israeli life is worth more than a Palestian one.
this is semantics anyway coz none of us on here have any idea how this deal was brokered and why the hostage/prisoner release numbers are as they are, there may be plenty of other concessions that are not being reported, so this is a pointless arguement

 

[StevenC]

I acknowledge there are a lot of injustices occurring on both sides. You seem blind to any notion of blame falling on both sides, and can only see Israel as Disney-esque villain / Palestine as innocents.

I mean, I'd stop thinking of Israel that way if they stopped acting that way.
Hamas is really shit. Palestinians have been getting genocided since before Hamas existed.
Netanyahu did stochastic terrorism to stop the Oslo Accords becaus he doesn't believe Palestinians have a right to exist in that part of the world.

Case in point: if Israel releases hundreds of Palestinians in exchange for one Israeli, it is not a value judgement on lives, it's about what a country is willing to bend to the demands of their enemy to protect their citizens. If Palestine was willing to give up the Israeli for one Palestinian prisoner, it would have gone down that way. That doesn't reflect that Palestinians value Israeli lives above their own. It's flawed logic all around.

Israel, in exchange for 50 hostages, are releasing 150 "prisoners" of 5000 including 1100 people held without charge. Israel has a lot more Palestinians to trade because they don't acknowledge their right to exist freely and will imprison them for literally anything. They'll also imprison them for literally nothing.

So, no, the reality of the Israeli regime shows that they do not value Palestinian lives. In Israel's mind, they are all citizens of Israel but Palestinians do not have the same rights as settlers.

Palestinian civilians deserve what's happening to the extent that Israeli citizens deserve what's happening to them.

Agreed. Insofar as they all deserve not to be murdered. Neither Israel nor Hamas believes this. One is a UN member state backed by western powers doing a genocide.

Hamas hasn't done a Nakba yet. Hamas will never kill as many Israelis as Israelis have killed Palestinians. Let's get it straight that the vast majority of the violence is state violence against a group they don't believe has the right to live there.

Both of them have the official line that the other group needs to leave the territory entirely, but only the pro-Palestinian movement thinks both of those lines are wrong.

 

[narad]

As in neither of them deserve whats happening to them? I'm not sure thats what you mean based on previous posts of yours

Neither / both. They both have rights to the land / neither of them have rights to the land. You can't have two people who hate each other (or are represented by people who hate each other) occupying the same space. If this had occurred a hundred years prior, one would have more thoroughly wiped the other out in war and pushed them back to solidify some more expansive boundaries -- that's more or less how all the other countries wound up where they are (it's war or it's geographic features). But since it occurred towards the end of hostilities in which larger powers were carving up most of the area, we had "diplomatic" solutions which merely made the whole place unstable.

Right now Israel has the power to do with Palestine more-or-less however it wants, through military superiority, and I think the Palestinians who want peace should give up and move on. If Palestine was vastly superior in terms of military power and the land holdings were similarly reversed, I'd be in favor of Palestine taking control. But this is obviously a failed experiment that is causing a net loss in terms of overall human suffering vs. one party giving up, and finding peace and mutual understanding in some situation where one is not constantly lobbing missiles at the other.

Of course it makes sense, read the UN report and that pretty much defines how Israel values Palestians lives. plus you point actually makes no sense, Israel is paying more in prisoners so to speak to release less Israeli hostages, that does look like an Israeli life is worth more than a Palestian one.
this is semantics anyway coz none of us on here have any idea how this deal was brokered and why the hostage/prisoner release numbers are as they are, there may be plenty of other concessions that are not being reported, so this is a pointless arguement

Yea, I'm not going to argue this to death. It doesn't make sense. Or should I start looking for other examples of prisoner exchanges, apply the same logic, and show the conclusions of what countries value their citizens as X% of other countries' citizens?

 

[StevenC]

If this had occurred a hundred years prior, one would have more thoroughly wiped the other out in war and pushed them back to solidify some more expansive boundaries -- that's more or less how all the other countries wound up where they are (it's war or it's geographic features). But since it occurred towards the end of hostilities in which larger powers were carving up most of the area, we had "diplomatic" solutions which merely made the whole place unstable.

Oh boy...