Working with a Mesa MkV. Rambly thread of tweaking a bullshit (albeit great) amp

[H13]

SO.

I got banned from The Gear Page because I made Trump jokes. I'd link to those jokes but they deleted the entire thread so I can't even highlight how lightweight said jokes are but I also don't feel like you're a proper gear nerd until you've been banned from TGP\Gearslutz so WAHEY!

ANYWAYS.

I've been working with my Mesa Mark V.

While it is a pretty goddamn spectacular amp, it is a hideous nightmare to dial in and get it doing the thing you want it to do.

It is so tweakable that it is almost definitely capable of whatever noise you can dream on. But holy shit. Figuring out how to get it to make that noise is a freaking nightmare.

Every few weeks I discover a thing about the amp and go: "AHA I GOT IT NOW" and then I discover a new thing. I am not saying this with joy, I am saying this mostly with rage along the lines of: "why the fuck is this fucker like this"

I have a gear nerd buddy and I feel like I am wearing his patience thin with my ramblings. So I figured I'd make a post my random ramblings about new dumb shit I discover with this amp in this thread. The value of this thread will be highly questionable. It's likely to bore the shit out of all of you. But I might also find some things along the way.

THE BASICS OF THIS DUMB AMP.
So if you're going "omg why is that amp such a debacle" the main reason why is because nothing really does what it says it does. It does the things it advertises in the same way that Darth Vader killed Anakin Skywalker.

"From a certain point of view"

Is that point of view literal, based on reality, practical or in a useful way? NOT REALLY!

SO.

There's the front panel EQ and the Graphic EQ. The first "quirk" of the amp we'll discover is that the front panel EQ (B\M\T\P) is pre-gain. You're effectively EQing the DI rather than EQing the amp. This requires a fairly different approach to EQing an amp because it both does and does not have a massive impact on your tone. Small moves with this EQ are not terribly effective. So for pretty much every setting that you use for the B\M\T you need to either crank it, or kill it. But once said control has been cranked\killed, you need to break out the tweezers to get the absolute perfect level of cranked\killed.

BASS CONTROL:
Hahahahahahahahaha kill this fucker dead. See, this control does add\reduce bass. But it does it like a vacuum. The more of this bass control you have, the more of your tone you suck into the bottom end. Have this set a smidge too high and suddenly your guitar is sounding like it's trying to claw its way out of quicksand. It'll also be adding some nasty gain as it tries valiantly to fight against the bottom end absorbing everything. At super low levels, it'll add some bottom end, but after that as I said, instead of adding bottom end, it just eats everything instead. Set it below 9:00.

MID CONTROL:
Sort of does mids? It's kinda more of a pick-attack knob. It adds some complexity to the midrange, but if you're expecting it to add some "bark" or "woof" like a Marshall midrange you're going to be very confused. However it doesn't just add midrange. After about 2:00, it starts to add gain as well. Because a Mesa Mark amp absolutely needs more midrange distortion yeah? That was the area it was always lacking in HA HA HA HAAaaaaaa. THE OTHER THING that this does is headroom. If you have the mid control cranked, you are going to strangle the headroom in your amp. This is a big problem if you use boost pedals. It's also a problem if you like to play with volume roll-off. I like having mids set as high as possible on my amps, so until I figured out that the Mid control is also gain, headroom and pick-attack, this was a problem. This one you can kinda set to taste, but you're gonna start to run into problems if it's set above 2:00. These problems can likely be workable, but you are going to have to compensate elsewhere.

TREBLE CONTROL:
Oh boy. This fucker. This fucker will kill you. The issue with the Mark V is that it can be an absolute ice-pick of an amp. This Treble control is likely to be half of that reason. The Mark V is a very compressed amp. The Treble control while adding Treble, will also add some dynamics and life to your tone. So to get over that dead, compressed feel, you're likely to add a shitload of this. The Treble control will also add gain (because of course it fucking would on this amp) and it's really good for adding some of that background saturation in your tone. In general, you want as much Treble as you can possibly get away with. I'd suggest starting at about 3:00 on the Treble, but shit, throw it all the way up if you can.

BUT:

PRESENCE CONTROL:
This bastard is a hellbeast. Kill it with fire. But don't. You need this. The Presence Control is as much of a dynamics control as anything else. If you want your Mesa to jump around and be lively like a Marshall? You need a boatload of this. The Mark V can be SUUUPER responsive and lively and super fast with the pick attack like a great Marshall, but to do that, you need a shitload of Presence. HOWEVER. You are going to be adding an absolute shitload of top end when you do that. Which means you need to REALLY SUPER CAREFULLY balance the Treble and Presence control to get the amp to be alive and kicking, but not a freaking eyeball-searing icepick at the same time. The difference between Treble\Presence being perfect and "OW MY EARBALLS" is like....1 hour on a clock. And it'll be either 1 hour extra of presence, or 1 hour extra of treble. GOOD LUCK FIGURING OUT WHICH ONE IT IS THOUGH.

COS THERE'S ANOTHER NIGHTMARISH THING ABOUT THIS AMP.

Each of these controls impact the frequencies of every other control. So you might start with everything at noon, then get the Mids to where you want it. Then you'll grab the treble knob, then discover the midpoints have changed. Which will then require an adjustment of the mids control after you adjusted the treble after you adjusted the mids.

So while you MIGHT think that "Oh this control is working on <Region>. I just need to back off <control> in order to kill the "too much" of <thing>" the reality is that previously <control> did <thing> but now that <thing> is set to <value> control is actually now doing <thing> instead.

So if you're running with too much gain, the question isn't: "Is my gain control set too high?"

It's actually more of: "Is it my gain too high? Is it the treble control? Or do I not have enough headroom from my mids?"

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There will be more rambling. I have no idea if this is helpful to anybody else but it's making me feel an awful lot better.

 

[HeHasTheJazzHands]

Idk if it's different on the V, but every time I use a Mark series I just go caveman brain and just bass + mids at 0, treble at 10. Done lol

Bass: mud, but you can get some slight booty by bumping it to 1 on occasion.
MId: Somehow even uglier mud. 0 At all times. Fuck this knob
Treble: my beloved, dime at all times. Okay not all the time, sometimes at 9.

Then again I like bright, attacky tones so that might be my problem lol.

The 5-band is a whole nother can of worms.

 

[H13]

Idk if it's different on the V, but every time I use a Mark series I just go caveman brain and just bass + mids at 0, treble at 10. Done lol

Bass: mud, but you can get some slight booty by bumping it to 1 on occasion.
MId: Somehow even uglier mud. 0 At all times. Fuck this knob
Treble: my beloved, dime at all times. Okay not all the time, sometimes at 9.

Then again I like bright, attacky tones so that might be my problem lol.

The 5-band is a whole nother can of worms.

I get some life out of the mids so I don't like to gut the mids. For me the mids too low makes the tone completely toothless and overly smooth. I'm a frustrated Marshall guy who loves how Marshalls play but don't love how they sound. So I think a lot of my frustration is that the MkV has the tone I want, but I'm trying to get it to play like a Marshall (which I don't think it will).

As you said, that 5 band is absolute fuckin' murder as well. I'll rant about that in another post. I had enough ranting just for the frant panel.

 

[KnightBrolaire]

The easy way to treat Marks is to set the bass at like 1, mids at 2, run treble at like 7 or 8/10, and then use the EQ to fine tune. Dialing the 3 band EQ like a regular amp will go poorly.


The 750hz slider is way more important than nearly any other GEQ slider imo. Too low and it's scooped to shit, too high and it's honky/boxy.
There's a reason most people run a deep V or Smiley face looking EQ, it's just where Marks tend to sound best imo.

 

[Grindspine]

So, the most helpful thing that I have found is that the MANUAL explains the gain staging and how the EQ controls are linked.

Mesa/Boogie - User Manuals

www.mesaboogie.com

There's the front panel EQ and the Graphic EQ. The first "quirk" of the amp we'll discover is that the front panel EQ (B\M\T\P) is pre-gain. You're effectively EQing the DI rather than EQing the amp. This requires a fairly different approach to EQing an amp because it both does and does not have a massive impact on your tone. Small moves with this EQ are not terribly effective. So for pretty much every setting that you use for the B\M\T you need to either crank it, or kill it. But once said control has been cranked\killed, you need to break out the tweezers to get the absolute perfect level of cranked\killed.

It doesn't exactly EQ the DI, rather the shape of the sound hitting the gain stages.

First off, after picking your channel (1, 2, 3) and mode (clean, fat, tweed, edge, crunch, mk iic, mk iv, extreme) the GAIN is the most functional control. Since that control is the first thing in the signal chain, it is going to change the sound the most. The TREBLE is next in line, then mids, but the mids don't only adjust midrange fullness, they also let so much more of the frequency spectrum hit the gain stages that it can act as a mid boost in high settings.

Finally, the bass is the last thing between the tone stack and the gain staging. If you adjust your base tone following that order of operations, you'll get a better result.

It also helps to try some GEQ settings other than the classic V. In Mesa's Mk525 / 535 xtreme videos, the guys from Autonomist use fairly relaxed settings on the lower two sliders, keeping their extended range from getting too boomy. If your settings on the EQ are too extreme for one mode, you can always use the "eq preset" knob to give a bit of the classic V shape to a different channel while keeping a non-V EQ shape on your main sound.

Hopefully these tips help!

 

[H13]

So, the most helpful thing that I have found is that the MANUAL explains the gain staging and how the EQ controls are linked.

Mesa/Boogie - User Manuals

www.mesaboogie.com

The Manual is a bit good and a bit bad.

It has a lot of good information, but the other little foibles I discovered (EG: Mids having a huuuuuge impact on the headroom) is not really discussed.

The "quirk" with this amp is that every control does about 4 things as well as the thing it says it does.

Edit: But at the same time, I absolutely wouldn't like to be the poor bastard who had to write the documentation for this amp.

 

[Big Dumb Bitch]

Just make the eq a V and turn knobs until it sounds good lol

 

[H13]

The easy way to treat Marks is to set the bass at like 1, mids at 2, run treble at like 7 or 8/10, and then use the EQ to fine tune. Dialing the 3 band EQ like a regular amp will go poorly.


The 750hz slider is way more important than nearly any other GEQ slider imo. Too low and it's scooped to shit, too high and it's honky/boxy.
There's a reason most people run a deep V or Smiley face looking EQ, it's just where Marks tend to sound best imo.

The 750hz slider is indeed the big thing.

But it's also in tweezer territory. I drop it down to the bottom line. But depending on the mix or the guitar or the position of the moon means you either get the slider in the middle of the bottom line, sitting on the top of the line, or if you want to do a really good cover of Black Album Metallica songs, below the line, but not quite at the bottom.

 

[H13]

SOOOO.

Let's talk about that GEQ.

The actual way you get the Mk amps to sound good.

However, like the front panel EQ, these have their own foibles that completely change what the amp does and how it does things.

First thing, the frequencies it says it modifies are a lie. I can't find the post but somebody once figured it out that the 2..2k slider is actually more around 1750hz. The 750hz is around 680-700ish. In my very humble experience, the frequencies move a little based on where things are set, just like the front panel does.

I liken it to a piece of string. When you boost the fuck out of the bass slider, the string is pulled to the left which means all the frequencies are pulled lower. But when you push the 8k slider up, the string is pulled to the right and it moves all the frequencies higher. There are further tweaks in the middle depending on what you do those other frequencies. So...overall it's best to think of the sliders as:

80hz - Sub Boom Thud
240hz - Low Mids
750hz - KILL IT WITH FIRE
2200 - Upper Mids\Pick Attack\Bark
6600 - Fizz KILL IT WITH SOME FIRE.

So since you don't want to use any of the bass on the front panel, you want to use as much of the 80hz slider as possible. The good news is that for once, boosting this frequency doesn't get as muddy as you'd expect boosting 80hz on a guitar would get. I mean you can absolutely make a sloppy mess if you're dedicated to DOING so, but you can be a bit more liberal with the 80hz than you'd think.

The 240hz is where you can compensate for the 80hz with. If you love the thud you can get out of the 80hz, you can get away with it a bit by gutting the 240 a little. The low Mid can also be pretty unpleasant and muddy. I generally find you want the 240hz around the midpoint, but probably dipping it a little. BUT BEWARE THE CLOAK OF MIDS (more on this later)

750hz you kill. Kill it with fire. When I first played my Mesa, I had the GEQ off 'cos I wanted to see what it would do. It was like running a Tubescreamer into a DI. If anybody tells you that you don't kill this frequency they are lying to you. However WELCOME TO TWEEZER TERRITORY. You want the slider to be either on top of, equal to, or JUST below the bottom line. Generally I find that in the room, there's very little difference between those 3 options, but then when you mic it up, there's a surprising big difference.

Which brings me to one of my main complaints about this amp.

who the fuck decided on the midpoints for these controls? Nobody in their right mind would move this 750hz much beyond that bottom line. There's almost no reason where that's going to sound great. So why the hell doesn't Mesa set up the EQ so that the bottom line is the actual midpoint?! Wouldn't that make a million percent more sense? Then you can add some mids, kill a little bit more if you want. Hell you could have the slider work at a much more gentle sweep boost\cut and make this control infinitely more usable. You could probably get even more tones out of this amp if it had sane midpoints.

2200hz is where the ice-pick starts. 2200hz is a bit like the Treble\Presence control. You want as much of this as you can get away with in order to induce some life into that compression and make the amp jump out and be super exciting. If you kill the 2200hz your guitar sound will cut like a nerf butter knife. It'll be smoooooth, but so smooth that nobody will hear you. You probably want to have this above the midpoint, but not too far.

6600 - HO BOY. THIS FUCKER.

I think the MkV is a little different to the other mk amps with this slider. I'm used to seeing Mks set up with a big V with this slider roughly at the same level as the 80hz slider. DO NOT DO THAT WITH THE MKV. Doing that with the MkV will create such a fizzy ice pick that everybody will hate you. This is especially true because on the front panel EQ, you need to boost the fuck out of the treble and the presence. So you're already throwing a lot of the amp into the top end that this will emphasise the shit out of wherever you set Presence\Treble.

So to get the top end right, you need to balance the Treble, the Presence and the 6600hz slider. WHICH ONE DO YOU HAVE TOO MUCH OF? The answer is yes.

Now if you want Marshall-esque tones: I found the best way to achieve this was to put the 2200hz slider ABOVE the 6k slider. You'll be surprised how Marshally you can get your MkV to sound. I've previously done a shootout between the MkV and JVM and aside from the "handling" (EG: Transient, swing, dynamics etc.) you can get the MkV to be SUUUUPER Marshally. Wouldn't be fair to say identical but in a mix, you could probably fool people.

...

HOWEVER.

If you want it to have that "classic" Mesa sound, you want to make sure that wherever you set your 80hz and 6k sliders, your middle sliders need to be below those. You need to have the V shape in order to get that Mesa smoothness, tightness and "liquidy" sorta mids. But there's other things about this.

When you've got that V shape, the amp opens up sooooo much more. You'll have more headroom, less compression and more life and joy. The Mk really does want that V applied to the GEQ in order for it to sound right.

Not just that, but that whole "gut most of the mids relative to the bass\treble" applies to "finding things" in the tone as well. I've recently discovered that if you want "more" of something, the best approach with the MkV is to kill everything around the the thing you're looking for. EG: If you want more pick attack, you'll have more success gutting more 750, than you would boosting 2200. This amp works better subtractive than it does additive.

My recent "discovery" or idea:

This amp, when overdriven, overdrives pretty much everything equally. Said overdrive creates a significant amount of compression. Ergo, when you are tone-sculpting this amp, you need to be aware that you're working in a much more compressed environnment than other amps. This generally means that when you add something, it doesn't really behave you expect it to. In a compressed environment, adding something leads to more compression. That can have an unpredictable result because in effective, you're already bashing your head against the cieling, so boosting\adding something is simply bashing your head even harder. You get much more predictable results in a highly compressed environment by taking things away, in order to give room to emphasise the things you want.

 

[MatrixClaw]

I found the Mark V to be the easiest Mark series amp to dial in. It sounded good for me even when the EQ was "normal"

 

[MASS DEFECT]

^Agree here. The V is easier to dial in among all the Marks. (VII is the easiest bar none). Wait til you get a Mark IV. lol

Treat the preamp as a boost pedal and the GEQ as the real eq of the amp. Bass is the tight knob, mids is the body, treble is dryness/saturation, presence is the cut.

Also the eq knobs change their behavior depends on what mode you are in.

Extreme mode knobs behave differently than the IV mode— the bass taper is different and the mids are more responsive. On Crunch, mid knob adds the saturation instead of treble in IIc and IV mode.

With the V, I always leave bright on, presence doesn’t go past noon. And give it more volume. The fizz and treble spike goes away when you set the master higher.

And always on Pentode.

 

[H13]

For the record, my MkV sounds great!

...

But I'm not convinced that it can't sound better.

You have all the knobs, switches and EQ options in the world. While you can definitely do the Ola thing, treble on 10, bass on 0, mids at around 9:00, symmetrical V in the EQ and probably get something great out of it...

I'm the sort of guy who looks at a thing and goes: "Is that the best it can do? How can I get it to do the best it can do?"*

Especially when it comes to this amp. With so many options and ways to tweak, I'm pretty certain that it should be possible to get something pretty fuckin' spectacular out of the amp.

But you also have to admit, the "normal" control setup is kinda dumb. You don't set this amp up like any other amp. Approach this amp like a Marshall and you're going to be very confused and disappointed and wondering why people like this amp.

Speaking of which, I'm somebody who...if you give me a thing and tell me to set it to 0 or 10, I'm going to explore the other options and try to explain WHY those other options work.

But it also bugs me for something to BE like that. If you're just meant to set something at the maximum or minimum value why the fuck give me an option to set it in any other way in the first place?!

So in my rabbit-holing, I'm discovering some of the reasons why you need to do the dumb things that you do (beyond: "'Cos it sounds better that way")

I'm the sort of moron who likes to look at my settings and be able to explain what every setting does and why it is set the way it is. For some amps like a JCM800, "It's set like that because that's what it does."

For the MkV: "Well you have to have the bass on super low because..." (etc. etc. etc.)

I am not going to be shocked if I end up rambling away in this thread to myself like some deranged loon. I am okay with that.

But at the very least, we might all learn why this amp needs to be set up in a very specific way. I feel like I'm also learning a lot about amps in general from doing this. Or if I end up falling completely off the deep end and saying "OMFG IT WAS THE GUITAR CABLE IT WAS THE CABLE ALL ALONG YOU GUYS IT'S TOTALLY THE CABLE" and going completely fucking mental, at least you get a front row seat.

OR:

If you'll forgive me for quoting the immortal Slipperman:

"I usually do this till I'm eventually discovered the next morning... (like THIS morning) huddled in
the machine locker, in fetal position, shivering... covered with sweat, blood, puke and piss...
rubbing my own shit thru my hair like it's Vitalis."

EDIT: I'm not opposed to discovering that Ola's settings really are the best\only way to set one of these amps up. But at least I'll understand why.

(*Yes, I had an Axe-FX. It was brain cancer for me. You give me THAT many settings I want to know that every single knob, switch, option and doohickey is in the correct spot for the best result. My therapist is still hearing about that thing)

 

[H13]

APOLOGIES FOR THE DOUBLE POST

But this is a separate thing to what I was rambling about up there



V30 with a 57

Here is how my Mark V sounds doing chugs at the moment. PRETTY DAMN GREAT.

A few things I would like to tweak:
- Top end is a bit brittle around the pick attack. However I want to emphasise the pick attack for more CHHHug
- Top end fizzes a little. This is an area where I'm chasing my tail. I add extra 2200 for CHHug which means for the sake of the "Mesa V" I need to add more 6k, which is creating the fizz. So I add a bit more of both, then go: "Ahh too far" pull 'em back and go "Not quite enough"
- Not much swing in the midrange. Sounds like a hammer, but feels like there's a big gaping hole around 750hz. Who'dathunk it? I don't think I could get away with adding more 750hz

WHAT I WILL TRY TOMORROW:

- Adding a Room Mic. See if I can get some of that swing from a room sound
- ...Oddly enough, a Tubescreamer. The TS808 might provide that midrange swing I'm looking for, and smear the pick attack a bit which will give me that CH emphasis without sounding brittle. Concerned that the Tubey mid spike might be a little too nasal, so I'll also try my Wampler Tumnus Deluxe. Klons are a bit deeper, less nasal, and with that 3 band EQ, I could roll off the bass and maybe get better.

TUNE IN TOMORROW FOR MORE EXCESSIVELY NERDY RANTS ABOUT A TOPIC THAT MAYBE 7 PEOPLE MIGHT GIVE A FUCK ABOUT.

 

[TheWarAgainstTime]

I rarely ever use the graphic EQ on my Mark V since the preset control does a different "thing" than anything I've been able to dial in with the sliders. I usually have it at noon for the yellow and red channels and turned off for cleans.

 

[Jon Pearson]

Oof. Adderall is a hell of a drug.

 

[H13]

Oof. Adderall is a hell of a drug.

ADDERALL?

Nah man. This is 100%, all natural, un-assissted crazy.

People have long suggested I have OCD but HA HA HA HAAAA EVERYBODY does this with their amps RIGHT? HA HA HA

...

heh...

(Yes, I do acknowledge I'm deep-diving beyond what is probably necessary)

 

[HeHasTheJazzHands]

You should get a Mark IV or Mark III, maybe even the 7 (lol $$$$$) I find they do the heavies better. The MK3 is probably the most ungodly saturated of the Marks, the MK4 has a meaner voicing, and the 7 seems pretty close to the 4 in terms of high gain voicing.

 

[Jon Pearson]

ADDERALL?

Nah man. This is 100%, all natural, un-assissted crazy.

People have long suggested I have OCD but HA HA HA HAAAA EVERYBODY does this with their amps RIGHT? HA HA HA

...

heh...

(Yes, I do acknowledge I'm deep-diving beyond what is probably necessary)

Tweak on buddy, maybe the tone gods smile upon you. I found my V:25 was always just one tweak away from being what I wanted, my other Marks were easier for me to settle into though.

 

[H13]

TI found my V:25 was always just one tweak away from being what I wanted

This is where I'm at.

And my very normal, definitely not spicy brain has latched onto finding out what this specific tweak is.

I suspect at one point in time in this thread I'll post: "HA HAAAA I GOT IT! THE TONE GODS SMILED UPON ME AND I AM A GUITAR GOD"

But that result will likely be pretty much identical to literally every other sample I end up posting.

I know how crazy this all is, and how excessive I am being . BUT HEY. That gives me joy.

 

[H13]

HERE IS THE RESULTS FROM TODAY'S FUCKERY



I added a TS808



And a Room Mic.

THINGS ARE GETTING BETTER. BUT ALSO NOT.

I think the 808 might be what I was looking for, but it's not "tweaked to perfection" yet.

WHAT I THINK THE 808 DOES:

- The 808 adds a shitload of 750hz. On the MkV, you gut a shitload of 750hz. I would suggest that the GEQ on the MKV easily overpowers the 750hz spike from the TS808, BUT I think with all the compression that the MKV has, adding a shitload of mids from an 808 adds some movement to the midrange that I was looking for (some of that swing). I think there's a lot more colour to those mids now and I kinda dig that.

- The rolled-off top of the 808 smooths out some of the icepicky top end of the MKV. Emphasises some CHH but now it's a bit more of a SCHHHug. KINDA COOL

- Since there's SO much EQ going on in the MKV, there's probably all sorts of weird phase relationships going on between the sliders and the front panel and stuff. I suspect the 808 dumps enough content onto the front end to sorta fill in a lot of those gaps and smooth things out.

WHAT I THINK THE ROOM MIC DOES:

- Make everything better. It aint perfect yet, but it's definitely cool.

NEW ISSUES:

- Missing some bite. I think I'm cool with it.
- Missing some precision. Lost some of that sorta real "accurate' feel that the MkV has. I think I'm cool with that too?
- Probably a bit too much gain. Gain staging the 808 into the MkV is a bitch. I generally have very bad luck at boosting a MkV due to the compression I was talking about before. We gonna be in tweezer territory.

WHAT I WILL TRY TOMORROW:
- Back off some of the gain on the MkV. Or some of the level on the 808. I will end up bouncing back and forth between these two a lot until I find which one of the two needs to be set 1 hour earlier than it currently is.

- Tweak the room-mic. I just kinda went: "MICROPHONE! IN ROOM! GO!" and pushed up a fader once I had phase-corrected. I doubt it's in the ideal location.

WHAT I WOULD CONSIDER:
- A different 8i08 style pedal with a bit more clarity and a bit less of an obvious midrange honk. I tried a bunch of pedals (TImmy, Wampler Tumnus, Fulltone Fulldrive) but the 808 was the winner so far. Open to suggestions if anybody is still reading this...