US Political Discussion: Trump Administration Edition (Rules in OP)

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by mongey, Mar 2, 2016.

  1. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    Get reading then. There's strong enough evidence of obstruction of justice that Mueller had to open that section by reiterating the Department of Justice standing interpretation of the constitutional law issues involved that a sitting president could not be indicted, so instead he was merely presenting the facts and referring the matter to Congress. He all but said "If I could indict the president, I would."

    On the subject with coordination with Russia, he documented a large number of suspicious contacts and actions both Trump and the Russians took that would benefit the other, but had no "smoking gun" evidence of an agreement between the two parties, meaning at the end of the day there was plenty of evidence, but not enough to substantiate charging the President with a crime because he wasn't able to prove criminal intent.

    The irony is, nothing in the report was actually really all that new, since most of it had already been reported on by the so called "fake news liberal media." Had Barr not set the bar so low with his memo which strongly implied there was no evidence at all of coordination with Russia, and unclear evidence of obstruction of justice, the release of even the redacted report wouldn't have been the bombshell Barr turned it into.

    As it is, because Trump fired Sessions several months before the end of the investigation and put Barr in his place, his removing Sessions is arguably an 11th count of obstruction of justice. And, given the jarring disconnects between Mueller's conclusions and Barr's not-summary of those conclusions, Barr is in legal jeopardy himself.
     
  2. Slippery_Pete

    Slippery_Pete SS.org Regular

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    Ok I will attempt to respond to your points.

    To your first point on obstruction of justice. I see no case to this. Comey was fired under the recommendation of Rod Rosenstein who then appointed Robert Mueller to head the special council. Weird?

    Also Trump had every right to fire Mueller if he believed he was to have conflicts of interest. Which he most certainly does. But guess what he didn’t fire him, he let the investigation go on for over 2 years until it ended didn’t he?

    To your second argument about there being no solid evidence that Trump or his campaign coordinated with Russia but that there is evidence to imply he wasn’t doing things in the best interest for America. I mean isn’t this subjective? I could point out a lot of things Clinton would do which wasn’t in the best interest for the country.

    So basically the only thing going is the obstruction case which honestly won’t amount to anything. But only time will tell.
     
  3. Slippery_Pete

    Slippery_Pete SS.org Regular

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    Drew. To your argument on obstruction of justice with the firing of Jeff Sessions. I mean really? The guy was completely useless. He should have never recused himself from the so called Russia investigation.
     
  4. MetalHex

    MetalHex SS.org Regular

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  5. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    So, you're saying you haven't read the Mueller report, then, but you're sure there's nothing in it. Because Mueller concludes the opposite of what you're saying here.

    1) Mueller concluded that the principle reason for firing Comey was his refusal to clear Trump in the Russia investigation. Full stop.

    2) Two parts to unpack here.
    a)First, Mueller's report argued that it's possible to do things you have the legal authority to do - fire Comey or Mueller, for instance - but if the reasons for doing so are to shut down an investigation into your conduct, then using legally-given powers for unscrupulous means can constitute obstruction of justice. It was Barr, not Mueller, who made that argument, in an amicus brief filed before he was nominated for AG.
    b) Trump DID try to fire Mueller. Twice. McGahn refused to do it.

    3) Of course it can be subjective - that's why we appointed a special prosecutor. And, his conclusion was that Russia was taking actions that would directly help Trump, while Trump was taking actions that would directly help Russia, after investigating whether or not Trump and Russia were working together. What he wasn't able to conclude with certainty, though, is if this was by agreement (i.e. - was there criminal intent), or if the two parties just happened to be doing things that were helping the other. It was suspicious as hell... But not enough to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Trump was guilty of anything other than the extremely bad judgement to be contacted by people purporting to be the agents of an enemy country, and not immediately notify US intelligence.
     
  6. Slippery_Pete

    Slippery_Pete SS.org Regular

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    Drew. Right after Comey was fired McCabe testified saying Trump's firing of Comey has not measurably slowed down the bureau's investigation into Russian meddling in the 2016 elections.

    McCabe was asked by Sen. Marco Rubio, R-Fla., whether Comey's dismissal has hurt the FBI's investigation in any way.

    "As you know, senator, the work of the men and women of the FBI continues despite any changes in circumstance, any decisions," McCabe said. "So there has been no effort to impede our investigation to date. Simply put, sir, you cannot stop the men and women of the FBI from doing the right thing, protecting the American people, and upholding the Constitution."

    My point is Trump firing Comey or Mueller wouldn’t matter. Someone else would replace them and the investigation would have continued no matter what.
     
  7. StevenC

    StevenC SS.org Regular

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    You understand how murder and attempted murder are both crimes, right? Effectiveness doesn't come into the legality of it.
     
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  8. Slippery_Pete

    Slippery_Pete SS.org Regular

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    I’m sorry but I don’t quite follow you on how this has anything to do with what I posted. We are discussing the firing of Comey and if it was obstruction of justice. Where did the murder part come into play here?
     
  9. StevenC

    StevenC SS.org Regular

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    If you try to obstruct justice that is illegal regardless of whether it is effective. The word for it is "conspiracy".
     
  10. Slippery_Pete

    Slippery_Pete SS.org Regular

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    I don’t even think you read what I posted. The acting director of the FBI said Trump firing Comey did not impede the Russia investigation. So....

    And also let’s be clear. Comey said Trump was not the target of the investigation before he was fired.

    In firing Comey, Trump wrote in a letter Tuesday: "I greatly appreciate you informing me, on three separate occasions, that I am not under investigation."

    Also: https://www.businessinsider.com/comey-told-trump-he-wasnt-under-investigation-2017-6

    Or this:
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2019
  11. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    So, according to Mueller, Trump fired Comey, because of the Russia investigation.
     
  12. Slippery_Pete

    Slippery_Pete SS.org Regular

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    Here is Rod Rosenstein’s letter of recommendation for firing Comey.

    Notice the subject title:

    SUBJECT: Restoring public confidence in the FBI

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39866767

    Let’s be clear again. Trump was not the subject of the Russia investigation prior to Comey’s dismissal.

    Then this same Rod Rosenstein appoints Robert Mueller as leader of the Special Council. Here’s the letter:

    https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3726381/Robert-Mueller-Special-Counsel-Russia.pdf

    I don’t think anyone can argue Rod Rosenstein was a lacky for Trump. He let Mueller and the special council do anything they wanted investigating the Trump campaign.

    And it was finally Barr and Rosenstein who concluded the Mueller report.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2019
  13. StevenC

    StevenC SS.org Regular

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    Because Comey couldn't be fired for investigating Trump, because that is illegal and called obstruction of justice.

    Why even bother...
     
  14. Slippery_Pete

    Slippery_Pete SS.org Regular

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    Wow. I provide you with a wealth of information on the firing of Comey and that’s your response? I’m guessing you didn’t ready anything I wrote. How about just reading Rosenstein’s letter for reasons of firing Comey. Read all the other people who recommended he be fired in that said letter. This is why he was fired. Not to obstruct justice on the Russia investigation. Which I again will tell you continued under McCabe without impediment. Comey failed the justice department, that’s why he was fired.

    Did you ever see that Colbert episode after Comey was fired? He’s like well Trump just fired Comey, and the audience was applauding with joy. Then Colbert is like oh no that’s a bad thing don’t applaud. That just shows you who’s controlling the narrative.

     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2019
  15. StevenC

    StevenC SS.org Regular

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    Trump fired Comey and, if you read the Mueller report or listen to what Trump said on the matter, it wasn't based on Rosentsein's recommendations.
     
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  16. Slippery_Pete

    Slippery_Pete SS.org Regular

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    Well the Mueller report is wrong. How do they even know this so called hidden intent? There is no proof other than that’s what someone said he said. The reasons were written by Rosenstein and the recomendation to fire Comey was Rosenstein, that’s not even debatable.

    Also remember how the special council came to be. It all started from Comey all of a sudden having “memos” with the president which he has never done before but decided to do it with Trump. It’s his word against Trumps with no actual proof. He said she said garbage.

    And this is all they have after 2 plus years of an investigation?

    Oh and this just in. Pelosi says no immediate plans for impeachment after Mueller memo.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2019
  17. narad

    narad SS.org Regular

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    That's speculation. Did Hilary call black people super predators, yes or no?
     
  18. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    If Trump fired him, which he did, and Trump's own words, which were the basis of the section of the Mueller report that I quoted for you, say that it has nothing to do with Rosenstein's rewording, and Rosenstein agrees in a seperate statement, then how in the hell is the Mueller report wrong about this?

    Let me put this out there: if Trump is not removed from office for obstruction, it proves that Trump didn't obstruct the investigation just as much as Bill Clinton not being removed from office proves he didn't lie under oath (hint: he did). Obstruction is a pretty serious crime, but so is lying under oath. I don't know that either of those would be enough to remove a sitting President. The President is also desperately trying to hide his tax returns from congress. It's like he's begging for more investigations, but, then again, why would the President, who won't even take his own salary, choose that battle? He's going to go down in history as the President who never got away from scandall, from day one. And for what? Personal privacy?

    If anyone wants to write the manual for how to look the most guilty, it should be Trump. If it was some poor schmoe who tried this hard to hide evidence and say "I'm fucked," when the detective comes to investigate, I really don't think he'd get a fair trail, because everyone would be crying for them to lock him up before the trial even started. But Trump does this crap and his fanbase is so galvanized that they probably don't give a rat's ass what he's done, they just want to see liberals suffer.

    It's not like this is the guy who stood up for privacy rights when they rolled out the Patriot Act, or the guy who said that the President's privacy is his own, when nutbags were convinced that Obama didn't have a birth certificate. So, all of this noise coming from him now is pure hypocracy.

    The Mueller Report has nothing earthshattering in it. It lays a convincing foundation that says that Trump tried to hide something, and the Special Council didn't find out anything linking Trump directly to Russian collusion in the election. That's good news! I mean, everyone already knew he was hiding something. We may never know what that is. Whatever, it's 2019, and I haven't been nuked, so that's something. I wasn't so sure we'd live this long with either of the 2016 candidates.
     
  19. ExileMetal

    ExileMetal SS.org Regular

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    There are a thousand reasons to remove this shit president that have nothing to do with Russia or the Mueller report, but as we've learned in the past few pages, anti-immigration, anti-gay, anti transgender, racism, failing economy, failing mental health, proven lying administrative employees, communicating via tweets (if you can call that word salad communication), destroying our world standing, pissing off our allies, giving our middle class to billionaire CEOs, denying science, removing environmental protections, funneling our tax dollars into Mar A Lago, and triggering the libs are actual values to stand behind for the right.

    Potential obstruction or collusion? Well, we aren't sure, but that's a small price to pay to make sure Hillary goes to jail, cuz I care way more about those people who have literally no impact on the USA in 2019. I'll gladly donate some more journalists (enemy of the people) to Saudi Arabia to make sure Trump stays in office. Evidence you say? -sticks fingers in ears - lalalalala I can't hear you! It's not true because I say it's not! It's like the time I tried to rob a bank and went to jail; I wasn't actually trying to rob it, I just wanted to show the teller my gun and take all of the money in the safe. We just call that "fighting back" , the Angry Democrats keep getting those things mixed up.

    I don't know how much of this is a joke anymore.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2019
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  20. efiltsohg

    efiltsohg SS.org Regular

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