US Political Discussion: Biden/Harris Edition (Rules in OP)

nightflameauto

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I’ve already surpassed the amount of times I can hear “This time they’re going to get him” and have any hope. It seemed like the entire 4 years the shithead was in office, especially during the Russia investigation, he was going down for this or that and not a single bit of it came to fruition.

I’ll believe it when I see it.
You're not the only one feeling this way. Hope? A tiny little shred. But I certainly wouldn't try hanging a hat on it.

Nope nope nope.

Chances this pushes the Trump Worshippers to violence are pretty high though. So we got that going for us!
 

Drew

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I’ve already surpassed the amount of times I can hear “This time they’re going to get him” and have any hope. It seemed like the entire 4 years the shithead was in office, especially during the Russia investigation, he was going down for this or that and not a single bit of it came to fruition.

I’ll believe it when I see it.
Well, I think you're going to be pleasantly surprised.

It's not easy to impeach a sitting president, unless there's bipartisan will to get him out. On the other hand, partisan opposition isn't enough to stop the DoJ. And, you don't do something like this unless you've got evidence. He's blustering histerically publically, which itself isn't a good look, but I'm sure privately he's shitting himself.

Mostly I'm a little surprised this hasn't prompted him to announce his 2024 candidacy yet, considering his game plan has all along been that when he's back in office - his words - these fake news witchhunts - again, his words - will have to stop since you can't persecute a sitting president - also his words.
 

Mathemagician

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What firm? IG is blocked at work.

But, in the long run, stock valuation is essentially driven by the expectations of at some point in the future capital being returned to investors, either when they sell shares, or in the form of direct capital returns, dividends or buybacks. The point of a publicly traded company isn't to keep capital locked up forever, it's to invest it in the business when it can be done profitably, and return it to investors when it can't.

Idunno. As an investor I don't love it when engage in significant shareholder capital returns because, well, I would rather own higher growth names, but that's nmore about my personal risk tolerance and buybacks or dividends can both have their place in corporate cash management.


Cleveland Cliffs a US steel producer. Held in several common small and mid cap ETF’s/mutual funds.
 

Drew

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Cleveland Cliffs a US steel producer. Held in several common small and mid cap ETF’s/mutual funds.
Not familiar with them, not really my space, I'm afraid.

Idunno, I just don't understand your specific issue with share buybacks, vs other levers management could potentially pull to return capital to shareholders or otherwise try to increase their stock price, but at the end of the day you're a guy I respect around here so whatever, we agree on a lot more than we usually disagree on, so I guess we can agree to disagree here. :shrug:
 

wheresthefbomb

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I won't believe it when I see it.

Even if we put Jones and Trump in jail it doesn't change anything, they're pustules, surface indicators of a much deeper infection that is conveniently resilient to traditional remedies.

Law enforcement in this country has deep roots in white supremacy and imperialism, it should be no surprise that it's toothless when it comes to treating the manifestations of those forces in modern times. This is the same FBI that routinely concocts and foils its own terrorist plots, radicalizing and jailing previously-innocent US citizens with inconvenient political ideas in the process. Whatever they're doing, rest assured it's in the service of those with power and influence.

Shit is bad and getting worse, that's what I see and that's what I believe. You can hang onto hope or you can hang onto your butt, I know which I'll be doing.
 

Drew

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I won't believe it when I see it.

Even if we put Jones and Trump in jail it doesn't change anything, they're pustules, surface indicators of a much deeper infection that is conveniently resilient to traditional remedies.

Law enforcement in this country has deep roots in white supremacy and imperialism, it should be no surprise that it's toothless when it comes to treating the manifestations of those forces in modern times. This is the same FBI that routinely concocts and foils its own terrorist plots, radicalizing and jailing previously-innocent US citizens with inconvenient political ideas in the process. Whatever they're doing, rest assured it's in the service of those with power and influence.

Shit is bad and getting worse, that's what I see and that's what I believe. You can hang onto hope or you can hang onto your butt, I know which I'll be doing.
Eh, still, even if I agreed with everything you wrote here (and I don't - our criminal justice system is deeply flawed, but not irredeemably corrupt), I'd still say that even if we posit the sort of irredeemably corrupt masterminds pulling all the strings from behind the curtain, they still understand the performative value of occasionally throwing some fresh meat to the wolves, and it's hard to see someone as compromised and nakedly self-interested as Trump being any further use to anyone but himself.

Even if you do believe the US criminal justice system is a hopeless sham, there's value (from the perspective of the people who benefit from retaining control of it) in occasionally letting the crowd crucify someone just to keep the illusion of justice in place. If Trump isn't wearing Depends, he should be. :rofl:
 

wheresthefbomb

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I'd still say that even if we posit the sort of irredeemably corrupt masterminds pulling all the strings from behind the curtain,

The reality is much scarier IMO, there is a vast diaspora of criminal masterminds all vying with each other and what we are able to look back and interpret as conspirancy is just the ghoulish manifestation of random chance imbued with rampant self-interest and hedging of bets by those with the means to do so.

I also didn't use the words "irredeemably corrupt," I pointed out rightly that our law enforcement system has largely unexamined roots in practices and institutions that directly call into question their ability to handle cases involving those practices and institutions. I'm not making a case for extent because I wouldn't know, that kind of deep structural analysis comes after collectively recognizing that such analysis ought to happen in the first place. It's not that much different from insisting that police don't use their own internal investigators to clear themselves of wrongdoing, wrongdoing which very often is in the service of people with power or influence. That's not a radical proposition, or at least it shouldn't be.

It's not a secret that police unions have deep ties with WS groups, nor the now-infamous "FBI terror plot." There is an ongoing investigation into whether elements of the secret service were complicit with Jan 6, and to what extent that complicity runs through the organization. These are the highest law enforcement agencies in this country, I feel pretty comfortable insisting on a higher standard. Who investigates the secret service? Who investigates the FBI? Who investigates whoever investigates them?

I think you're boiling down my perspective to some kind of illuminati conspiracy, and maybe that's because I'm not explaining it very well, but I couldn't be further from believing in a man behind the curtain. Nobody has hands on the wheel, which to me is a whole lot scarier.


On the other hand, you raise a really good point. There is a very common phenomenon in activist circles where once "a" victory has been achieved, people lose steam as they bask in that accomplishment. There was a lot of this around gay marriage, for example, where people pushed really hard for the queer struggle in that very specific sector, and then left trans youth out in the literal and figurative cold. While the overall political climate is still heated, there has also been a big die-off of smaller reactionary leftist political groups since Biden took office. The same happened under Obama, etc.

Whether there is a conspiracy in place or not is immaterial, the effect is the same. In this case, one effect is the constant de-radicalization and de-motivation of leftists while right wing groups become more radical and militarized. We could call it a conspiracy, we could call it the manifestation of our country's culture and heritage, we could call it whatever, but it's happening and I don't think I need to walk everyone here through the implications.
 

Riff the Road Dog

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Not sure about this level, but, generally, you have to convince/prove you have probable cause to a judge to get a search warrant, which is a pretty high burden really. Have to know what it is you're looking for, why that's important to the case, and specifically where you're gonna find it. From what I heard on NPR this AM, at this level everybody had to be on board, including Garland.
But, even then, defense can argue the warrant was drawn either too narrowly or too broadly, etc.

So the first part looks like it could be pretty significant. The question is, did they find what they were looking for and will it stand up in court? Very interesting.
 

High Plains Drifter

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Well at least from his cult, they're uniting under the whole "upcoming election cycle/ dirty dem tricks" argument. Truly amazing, the mental gymnastics his base is willing to perform. Full on martyr mode engaged now. Like I saw in meme-land "Only difference between trump and Jim Jones is that trump would make em pay for the koolaid".
 

Adieu

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Holy hell. Whatever dirt they had to authorize an FBI raid on the home of the former president of the United States must be absolutely rock solid. No one would stake their careers on that if it wasn't absolutely iron clad, unless they knew exactly what they were looking for and exactly where to find it.

Probably.

Or not. The guy's pretty, uh, polarizing.

Might be quite a lot of people willing to stake a lot to take his ass down.
 

Adieu

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All we know is that Trump is surely furious at the frail, senile dipshit who appointed the current head of the FBI.

*hint: it was Trump.

WAIT.

Maybe TRUMP was the one who begged him to raid him? And not find jack shit or perhaps something laughable?

It COULD be a pretty devious high-stakes move to gain some points.
 

spudmunkey

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WAIT.

Maybe TRUMP was the one who begged him to raid him? And not find jack shit or perhaps something laughable?

It COULD be a pretty devious high-stakes move to gain some points.

The judge that approved the warrant was also a Trump appointee. Conservative media is trying to discredit him by saying he's "linked to Epstein" and therefore can't be trusted...but he was a lawyer defending some of Epstein's employees, before Trump appointed him.
 

mmr007

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One of my all time favorite movies lines is "you don't put on a condom unless you're gonna F*** "

FBI doesn't conduct this search unless they were convinced with 100% certainty there was a felony level offense or more. They also won't let this simmer for months. If charges are coming, they will come within the next 30 days. You don't do a search on the residence of a former president as a fishing expedition. You do it to confirm what you pretty much already know right before you unleash the dogs.
I dont doubt intent. I doubt results. There were raids conducted for the Mueller probe that resulted in fuck all. My guess though is that many people felt Trump was sharing secrets with the russians and thats why they are so concerned with this classified material
 

nightflameauto

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The judge that approved the warrant was also a Trump appointee. Conservative media is trying to discredit him by saying he's "linked to Epstein" and therefore can't be trusted...but he was a lawyer defending some of Epstein's employees, before Trump appointed him.
Trump is linked to Epstein too.

Wait, is this that fifth dimensional chess we're always hearing about?
 

thraxil

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OK, so it sounds like it's reasonably certain now that the search warrant was related to the presidential records act / national archives stuff rather than some other investigation (I haven't seen anything concrete, but there have been a few different news outlets now that are claiming that they have sources for that and since it's a relatively unsalacious claim, I don't have good reason to doubt it).

Going with that, it still raises some questions.

We know that the National Archives already requested documents returned months ago and that Trump sent some back. With this search warrant, the implication is that not all of them were returned but were instead kept at Mar a Lago.

So I'm really wondering what documents those could be? What documents were worth Trump taking from the White House in the first place? In theory, he and everyone on his team was thoroughly aware of the security and presidential records act ramifications of taking them and that they were committing a crime by taking them. But let's be extremely generous and say that it was an oversight. The movers just grabbed everything in a box and took it away. And somehow they didn't notice and return them immediately. Honest mistake. Then months later, the National Archives come calling make them return them. Was it another "honest" mistake to not return all the documents they had? That seems unlikely. At that point there's absolutely no excuse for not cooperating fully and handing everything back.

So, even after being *fully* aware that they're committing a crime, what documents were worth the risk of holding onto?

Anything that was incriminating in some form for Trump or his family I could see being ones that they took out of the White House originally. That would make perfect sense. But there's no upside to *keeping* those documents once they got them back to Mar a Lago. The National Archives didn't sneak in in the middle of the night and take them back. They had plenty of warning on that. If I was Trump and holding onto incriminating documents that the government wanted back, I'd find a fireplace and some matches and sort that out once and for all. The dude apparently chewed up and flushed documents down the toilet while he was in office; he's clearly smart enough to not purposely hold onto incriminating documents for no good reason. Instead they went through the trouble of sorting through them, finding a few boxes that they could return but keeping the rest. But not destroying them.

With self-incriminating documents ruled out, what's left?

Top secret stuff? OK, but why? What personal benefit would Trump get from that? As immoral and unethical as he is, I don't believe that he'd be hoarding top secret documents with the intention of selling them to Russia or something. And if that was his plan, why would he wait? Whatever value they would've had, I'm sure it would decrease the longer he held onto them. He's enough of a businessman to know that the stale information is worth less than fresh.

Incriminating evidence on his rivals? Maybe. Like, if there were documents showing that Biden and Pelosi ate babies, I guess he'd want to keep those to use against them later. But again, it doesn't seem likely that he'd sit on those for a year and a half. If he had super blackmail material like that while he was still in power, he'd have used it to remain in power. Or to shut down the Jan 6 committee or fuck over Jeff Bezos or something. He just doesn't seem like the type to carefully bide his time waiting for exactly the right opportunity to reveal Obama's Kenyan birth certificate. If he had anything juicy on someone he didn't like, he'd have blurted it out long ago. And if he was cunning enough for that kind of long term plan, would he really be dumb enough to keep them at Mar a Lago knowing that someone at the National Archives was doing an inventory and eventually someone would be coming for the rest of them?

So I'm honestly left wondering what documents would be left?

Or is he just even dumber and more narcissistic than even I believed?
 

nightflameauto

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@thraxil
Your last sentence, definitely.

Apparently, reading around the web, Trump was so out-of-touch that a lot of documents that were supposed to be archived got flushed down toilets once he "read" them while he was in office. To the point it was jamming up the pipes quite frequently. The man's either the best person ever at acting like an erratic lunatic to play to his base, or he's actually an erratic lunatic.

Which seems the most likely to you?
 

High Plains Drifter

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I think it's possible just due to the magnificent train wreck that he is, that maybe he held on to documents but didn't really know why. Sort of like hanging onto a rainy-day blackmail arsenal. True that as time passes, certain documents may loose some value or effectiveness but trump has always seemed like a guy that would literally hoard things... documents, photos, text records, ketchup packets, or whatever... as a possible bargaining chip or blackmailing tool for essentially anything or anyone that might eventually come his way. He's obviously committed many illegal and unethical actions so maybe it's just "I better save some of this shit that might save my ass down the road"... like random documents and things. He's just that horrible.

I also wonder if due to his delusional and lax nature, that maybe he simply held onto stuff thinking "no one's ever going to get me. I get away with all the crimes" and subsequently felt that he would never in a million years be raided, so why worry about getting rid of incriminating evidence... Like out of sight, out of mind or "I'll do it later.. golf and Big Macs be callin me now". Being investigated and scrutinized is nothing new for him but part of me thinks that he has developed ( especially over the last couple years) a true belief that he truly is above the law. The man possesses very little long-term/ proactive thought and very little fear of consequence so it really could just be that he kept shit thinking the feds would never physically be knocking on his door.

I don't even put it past him that he might hold onto certain things solely out of nostalgia... Sounds unrealistic but this is trump. He could be saving sensitive documents simply as memorabilia or to show someone down the road like "Look what I did when I was prez. Aren't I a little stinker!" Fuck, he's a mess but as long as his base exists, he has no reason to clean up his act.
 

nightflameauto

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I just read Pence's statement regarding the raid. Wow, this guy. After all he went through. Still a worm and a sycophant.
I can't imagine. The base was chanting for your death, quite rigorously. They constructed a gallows. And your assigned secret service agents were calling loved ones to say goodbye.

How do you go from that moment, to this one, however many years later, and still want to pander to those people? I just can't wrap my head around it.
 


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