Unpopular opinions on gear

[LeftOurEyes]

Fellas, not only is 'unpopular opinion' in the title of the thread, I referenced it in my post.

There's no need to try and police the thread into staying on topic as I can read the title just fine.

Seeing as like half the people on here use modelers and IRs and love them then it is very possible that 'they are contributing to boring recorded tones from a lot of bands' could actually be an unpopular opinion. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[drb]

There's no need to try and police the thread into staying on topic as I can read the title just fine.

Seeing as like half the people on here use modelers and IRs and love them then it is very possible that 'they are contributing to boring recorded tones from a lot of bands' could actually be an unpopular opinion. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

That was more an (apparently poor) attempt at humour than trying to police the thread lmao. Apologies if that came across as being overly confrontational.

That is an interesting point though, I see many more comments about how boring modern metal guitar tones and mixes are than I do the opposite. I'm going to post a poll in the general music discussion section.

 

[LeftOurEyes]

That was more an (apparently poor) attempt at humour than trying to police the thread lmao. Apologies if that came across as being overly confrontational.

That is an interesting point though, I see many more comments about how boring modern metal guitar tones and mixes are than I do the opposite. I'm going to post a poll in the general music discussion section.

No worries, I took it wrong as sarcasm doesn't always translate super well in text lol.

I just assumed that opinion would be unpoular because a lot of people here love modelers and IRs but I dunno if that's really the case or not.

People may say that modern mixes and tones are boring but I don't go online a ton for this stuff so I dont know what the reason they think this is though. I think that modelers and IRs certainly play a role because the sound is more consistent. An amp and mic/cab combo might sound slightly different from band to band because of how it was set up but if I used the same preset and IR as you then we'd sound basically the same.

The main culprit making tones more similar could just be the internet though. Youtube has created a rather large group of people that spend much more time watching gear videos than actually using any and everyone is chasing the same gear and sounds (or presets) because some artist or youtube influencer talks about how great it is. Plus in the past there was also some mystery as to how some tones were made, now there are rig rundowns a podcasts giving you most of the info you could want to know.

 

[STRHelvete]

Thinking that things sound the same because people are using IRs and modellers is just fucking stupid.
You have literally thousands of options with IRs and a modeling amp. Thousands of mic and position options, as well as all sorts of mixing/recording options.
If you end up sounding exactly like another band it's because you have no goddamn originality or you intended to sound that way. Don't blame the gear.
Back in the day they just had a single amp and cab, hell often time the amp had only one or two channels with limited features. If you have every tonal option in the goddamn world at your fingertips and you just sound like "Insert stupid ass djent/core/modernbullshit here" it's because you didn't bother to step out of that box.

Don't blame gear for its owner's piss poor choices.

 

[RevDrucifer]

It really does seem like some people mixing in certain genres all watched the same 6 YouTube tutorials and all bought the same 5 sample packs. But you're right. Modelers and IRs aren't the reason everything sounds the same. It's the artist and engineers decision to sound the same.

I strongly agree with this and you can see evidence in it in almost any “Help me with my mix” thread where the OP will say “I followed along the URM video and did the exact EQ cuts but it still doesn’t sound the same”

I think it’s a mix of both these content creators putting out videos with blanket statements “Cut 80hz on your guitars, boost 350k, etc” and the people watching them assuming that’s going to be the case for every song when they all really need to be treated as individual songs unless the intent is to make the entire album sound exactly the same.

If using a modeler made everyone sound the same there wouldn’t be 4,000,000,000,000 threads on the FAS forum saying “I downloaded these presets and they don’t sound anything like the demo”

 

[Spaced Out Ace]

We're creeping away from unpopular opinions on gear here but nevertheless...

Give me a 'generic' sounding guitar tone and extremely refined and polished mix any day of the week over spinning a roulette wheel when listening to a record as to whether it has some aspect to it that makes it almost, if not entirely, unlistenable.

Please, McDonald's Records, I want E V E R Y T H I N G to sound the same!

Everything sounding the same coming right up!

 

[STRHelvete]

The funny thing is...everyone complaining about things sounding the same...y'all sound like SSO's good buddy

 

[TedEH]

You have literally thousands of options with IRs and a modeling amp.

I'd be willing to bet that despite all the options, so many people just use the same basic choices because we've trained ourselves to think "these are the good ones". As in - all of our models are all of the same handful of amps, and 99% of the time, you're looking at an IR of a 57 in front of an oversized Recto cab, maybe blended with something else.

Everyone targets the same "boosted recto" or "5150 with a boost and an eq in the loop" and then goes "wait - why does my model of a 5150 with a TS and an EQ through a Recto 4x12 via sm57 sound just like your model of a 5150 with a TS and an EQ through a Recto 4x12 via sm57?"

It's why I was so hesitant to go the modeller route for a long time - I felt like it was inane to go through all the process of modelling these things when you already have the real thing. I have an amp, I have a cab, I have an sm57, and they sound just fine. Now I have a digital box that sounds like I have an amp, cab, and 57. That's doesn't really feel like progress.

Until I started trying out models of amps I'd never own - THEN you really got something. Turns out I really like the Marshall flavour of (modeled) amps. For someone who use to say "I'll never need anything more than my Mark IV", I settled on a model of a JCM800 without a boost for one band - and it's a sound so far removed from anything I got from a Mesa amp.

Maybe a weird / unpopular / uncommon take is that modellers, for me, have really shined on bass more than guitar. I say that because I feel like I've been chasing the tube-bass-amp sound for a long time, and no solid-state amp I've tried managed to get there. Models mean I can get that sound without breaking my back and wallet.

 

[-Cetanu-]

Thinking that things sound the same because people are using IRs and modellers is just fucking stupid.
You have literally thousands of options with IRs and

lol, it's an utterly moronic hot take if you actually believe these "thousands of options" are widely used when there's more than enough evidence to the contrary in all those mixing, nailthemix, puremix, sneap, udemy and whatever forums and hundreds of mixes are using the same Ownhammer Mesa OS V30 IR and the same amp models/presets/settings.

 

[TheBlackBard]

The funny thing is...everyone complaining about things sounding the same...y'all sound like SSO's good buddy

Even an asshole is right once in awhile, or whatever Confucius said.

 

[STRHelvete]

lol, it's an utterly moronic hot take if you actually believe these "thousands of options" are widely used when there's more than enough evidence to the contrary in all those mixing, nailthemix, puremix, sneap, udemy and whatever forums and hundreds of mixes are using the same Ownhammer Mesa OS V30 IR and the same amp models/presets/settings.

Then those people are idiots. If you don't take the time to understand your gear and dial in a sound that works for your personal taste and the mix, then you're to blame.

In this day and age, a little bit of individuality in guitar isn't hard. If you sit in echo chambers with other drones, copying everything they do then...well...you know.

 

[HeHasTheJazzHands]

With the advent of the internet, it's technology's fault for everything sounding the same... But it's not the gear's fault. Or the fact shit is digital.
It's because it's so easy to figure out what people used in mixes, how they dialed it in, etc etc. It's easy to copy and past other people's setups because of people being so open about what they used.

If digital shit is at fault, it's because it does such a good job at emulating these setups that people are copying, but that's still 100% on the user.

I feel like if these claims about modelers and IRs making everything sound the same were true, then I'd sound exactly like Guitarjon here because I have nealy the same setup he has (Line 6 Helix w/ the Badonk model into York Audio IRs)... yet I don't because I use the fucking knobs.

 

[drb]

Please, McDonald's Records, I want E V E R Y T H I N G to sound the same!

Everything sounding the same coming right up!

And yet...

 

[wheresthefbomb]

Then those people are idiots. If you don't take the time to understand your gear and dial in a sound that works for your personal taste and the mix, then you're to blame.

In this day and age, a little bit of individuality in guitar isn't hard. If you sit in echo chambers with other drones, copying everything they do then...well...you know.

echo you say? drones you say? this is starting to sound like a pretty good time...

 

[c7spheres]

Thinking that things sound the same because people are using IRs and modellers is just fucking stupid.
You have literally thousands of options with IRs and a modeling amp. Thousands of mic and position options, as well as all sorts of mixing/recording options.
If you end up sounding exactly like another band it's because you have no goddamn originality or you intended to sound that way. Don't blame the gear.
Back in the day they just had a single amp and cab, hell often time the amp had only one or two channels with limited features. If you have every tonal option in the goddamn world at your fingertips and you just sound like "Insert stupid ass djent/core/modernbullshit here" it's because you didn't bother to step out of that box.

Don't blame gear for its owner's piss poor choices.

If I ever get an AxeFx or something I still think the key for me will be to make my own IR's. Of thousands of IR's I've tried in Reaper to me they all basically suck. Some get close but they all have that phasey hollow sound on them. I've been bitchin about it for years now, lol.
- I think the error is in how they're being made. Not enough attention it'd seem because pretty much everything with an IR sounds like that hollow phased out box tone rather than a cabinet box tone to me, lol. It's not modellers, it's IR's. Even the new Mark VII IR's seem to suck compared to mic'd tones. I know I've heard better. Still crazy how Boogie can't IR their own stuff phenomenally, or maybe that's Two Notes fault, as it really does sound like that Two Notes software IR's to me, tbh. Seriously, mic a headphone or play through a Marshall MS-2 cab and it's really close. That's what I"m hearing coming from a $3500 Boogie IR. (please, don't hit me)
- Most IR's suck, imo, but most people can't tell because most people have never heard what it really should sound like. Imo.

- Also remember most IR's use one of only two mainly used algorithms for the math, so what do we know about algorithm based digital stuff? It does an exact same thing to the audio every time. Well, if you use the same algorithm pumped through the same piece of hardware, set to similar levels etc it's going to sound like a signature thing, just like with old gear like Rocktrons, Tc's etc. They all have their thing. So do modellers. Since there's only a few pieces of hardware really used by most of the people now and everyone is going for the same music, tone , recording techiniq etc. it's getting closer. Soon, we will all be one playing the same the song and the world will be at peace (according to AI, jk).

- Sometimes when I hear an IR someone says they shot themselves of their own rig they seem to sound fine and very close to the orignal sound. I really believe this is likely the best way to do it.
- With most people not shooting their own IR's and using the same half dozen devices, along with characterless daw's and modern formulaic mixing and mastering techinques, along with derivative music, machine sample drums and beats, etc, this is why it's all sounding similar, imo. - Also, no matter what, every piece of gear has it's inherent tone, like an old Eventide or Digitech unit etc. Things like AxeFX are great but ultimately will have it too.
- Also, For something like a modeller the hard reality is that they are solid state preamp/processors. They do really good at mimicing the real thing obivously, but they are still solid state pre's with digital processing so those characteristics will always be there. They're the GSP 21's, ART SGX's, 2101's ect of their time but without tubes. What Axe IV should include is a tube preamp section and selectable transformers just for fun to spice things up. Like a block to run things through, not part of the modellilng perse' That way people can get that saturation and harmonics they're missing. You don't need a big tube or transformer to get those things. I know Steph from Deftones used some Palmers on the ass of his Axe 2 for the transformers to get better feel/tone.
- What people need to get away from in a big way is trying to get someone else's tone. They need to find their own, unless you're doing a cover song maybe.

 

[gunch]

I want to be a contrarian and get a mode four cab IR

 

[AwakenTheSkies]

If I ever get an AxeFx or something I still think the key for me will be to make my own IR's. Of thousands of IR's I've tried in Reaper to me they all basically suck. Some get close but they all have that phasey hollow sound on them. I've been bitchin about it for years now, lol.
- I think the error is in how they're being made. Not enough attention it'd seem because pretty much everything with an IR sounds like that hollow phased out box tone rather than a cabinet box tone to me, lol. It's not modellers, it's IR's. Even the new Mark VII IR's seem to suck compared to mic'd tones. I know I've heard better. Still crazy how Boogie can't IR their own stuff phenomenally, or maybe that's Two Notes fault, as it really does sound like that Two Notes software IR's to me, tbh. Seriously, mic a headphone or play through a Marshall MS-2 cab and it's really close. That's what I"m hearing coming from a $3500 Boogie IR. (please, don't hit me)
- Most IR's suck, imo, but most people can't tell because most people have never heard what it really should sound like. Imo.

- Also remember most IR's use one of only two mainly used algorithms for the math, so what do we know about algorithm based digital stuff? It does an exact same thing to the audio every time. Well, if you use the same algorithm pumped through the same piece of hardware, set to similar levels etc it's going to sound like a signature thing, just like with old gear like Rocktrons, Tc's etc. They all have their thing. So do modellers. Since there's only a few pieces of hardware really used by most of the people now and everyone is going for the same music, tone , recording techiniq etc. it's getting closer. Soon, we will all be one playing the same the song and the world will be at peace (according to AI, jk).

- Sometimes when I hear an IR someone says they shot themselves of their own rig they seem to sound fine and very close to the orignal sound. I really believe this is likely the best way to do it.
- With most people not shooting their own IR's and using the same half dozen devices, along with characterless daw's and modern formulaic mixing and mastering techinques, along with derivative music, machine sample drums and beats, etc, this is why it's all sounding similar, imo. - Also, no matter what, every piece of gear has it's inherent tone, like an old Eventide or Digitech unit etc. Things like AxeFX are great but ultimately will have it too.
- Also, For something like a modeller the hard reality is that they are solid state preamp/processors. They do really good at mimicing the real thing obivously, but they are still solid state pre's with digital processing so those characteristics will always be there. They're the GSP 21's, ART SGX's, 2101's ect of their time but without tubes. What Axe IV should include is a tube preamp section and selectable transformers just for fun to spice things up. Like a block to run things through, not part of the modellilng perse' That way people can get that saturation and harmonics they're missing. You don't need a big tube or transformer to get those things. I know Steph from Deftones used some Palmers on the ass of his Axe 2 for the transformers to get better feel/tone.
- What people need to get away from in a big way is trying to get someone else's tone. They need to find their own, unless you're doing a cover song maybe.

True. Since I got my tube combo and mic'd it up for recording, I haven't used my Helix LT to record again since. I only use the Helix as a tuner now 🤣🤣

And I now that I also got the tube mic preamp the other day, I use that in the chain as well and I'm just getting a really good recorded sound. There's just something really good about it that's missing in the Helix, or any modeling plugin that I have tried all these years. No matter what brand of emulation I try.

I have posted so many threads here about being frustrated with my recorded tone and after years of tweaking and trying I was getting somewhere with the modellers, especially after the last Helix cab update. But now that I have some analogue gear like I said above, there is no question that this is the real deal.

I don't care about the YouTube demos and A/Bs and whatever. I never watch them anyway. I only care about the results that I personally get.

 

[drb]

I want to be a contrarian and get a mode four cab IR

I've been looking at an MF280 on Reverb recently. I typically use IRs through a FRFR, even with real amps, but I'm craving the amp in the room sound. These seem to sound close enough to the recto 4x12 to sound familiar but unique enough to not be too samey.

If I ever get an AxeFx or something I still think the key for me will be to make my own IR's. Of thousands of IR's I've tried in Reaper to me they all basically suck. Some get close but they all have that phasey hollow sound on them. I've been bitchin about it for years now, lol.
- I think the error is in how they're being made. Not enough attention it'd seem because pretty much everything with an IR sounds like that hollow phased out box tone rather than a cabinet box tone to me, lol. It's not modellers, it's IR's. Even the new Mark VII IR's seem to suck compared to mic'd tones. I know I've heard better. Still crazy how Boogie can't IR their own stuff phenomenally, or maybe that's Two Notes fault, as it really does sound like that Two Notes software IR's to me, tbh. Seriously, mic a headphone or play through a Marshall MS-2 cab and it's really close. That's what I"m hearing coming from a $3500 Boogie IR. (please, don't hit me)
- Most IR's suck, imo, but most people can't tell because most people have never heard what it really should sound like. Imo.

- Also remember most IR's use one of only two mainly used algorithms for the math, so what do we know about algorithm based digital stuff? It does an exact same thing to the audio every time. Well, if you use the same algorithm pumped through the same piece of hardware, set to similar levels etc it's going to sound like a signature thing, just like with old gear like Rocktrons, Tc's etc. They all have their thing. So do modellers. Since there's only a few pieces of hardware really used by most of the people now and everyone is going for the same music, tone , recording techiniq etc. it's getting closer. Soon, we will all be one playing the same the song and the world will be at peace (according to AI, jk).

- Sometimes when I hear an IR someone says they shot themselves of their own rig they seem to sound fine and very close to the orignal sound. I really believe this is likely the best way to do it.
- With most people not shooting their own IR's and using the same half dozen devices, along with characterless daw's and modern formulaic mixing and mastering techinques, along with derivative music, machine sample drums and beats, etc, this is why it's all sounding similar, imo. - Also, no matter what, every piece of gear has it's inherent tone, like an old Eventide or Digitech unit etc. Things like AxeFX are great but ultimately will have it too.
- Also, For something like a modeller the hard reality is that they are solid state preamp/processors. They do really good at mimicing the real thing obivously, but they are still solid state pre's with digital processing so those characteristics will always be there. They're the GSP 21's, ART SGX's, 2101's ect of their time but without tubes. What Axe IV should include is a tube preamp section and selectable transformers just for fun to spice things up. Like a block to run things through, not part of the modellilng perse' That way people can get that saturation and harmonics they're missing. You don't need a big tube or transformer to get those things. I know Steph from Deftones used some Palmers on the ass of his Axe 2 for the transformers to get better feel/tone.
- What people need to get away from in a big way is trying to get someone else's tone. They need to find their own, unless you're doing a cover song maybe.

I feel like there are a number of opinions asserted as fact here, despite evidence of the contrary in some cases, no less.

 

[c7spheres]

True. Since I got my tube combo and mic'd it up for recording, I haven't used my Helix LT to record again since. I only use the Helix as a tuner now 🤣🤣

And I now that I also got the tube mic preamp the other day, I use that in the chain as well and I'm just getting a really good recorded sound. There's just something really good about it that's missing in the Helix, or any modeling plugin that I have tried all these years. No matter what brand of emulation I try.

I have posted so many threads here about being frustrated with my recorded tone and after years of tweaking and trying I was getting somewhere with the modellers, especially after the last Helix cab update. But now that I have some analogue gear like I said above, there is no question that this is the real deal.

I don't care about the YouTube demos and A/Bs and whatever. I never watch them anyway. I only care about the results that I personally get.

It's funny because I've been so torn on getting an AxeFx. I don't think modelling is a problem at all. Atfer everything I've seen and researched and tried it really does seem to be three issues with modellers; 1.) IR"s (because of reasons in my prev post) , 2.) some tyoe of harmonic content definiency thing happening due to lack of tube preamp, but I don't think that's that big of a deal really compared to 3.) lack of real power tube section. I think this is huge in terms of feel and oomph. I think it's probably possible to dial it all in without it still but probably need to be familiar with the amp your dialing in to get there.
- I think it's all solvable but also think just making one's own tone and popping a modeller on a real tube power sectionwould probably be easier and more satisfying. If more harmonic content is wanted put something like a Fryett Valvulator buffer in front etc or in a loop in front to get it before hitting the modeller input too.

I've been looking at an MF280 on Reverb recently. I typically use IRs through a FRFR, even with real amps, but I'm craving the amp in the room sound. These seem to sound close enough to the recto 4x12 to sound familiar but unique enough to not be too samey.

I feel like there are a number of opinions asserted as fact here, despite evidence of the contrary in some cases, no less.

I'm willing to learn and do admit I believe in things that may not be questionably true sometimes. I do tend to talk like my opinion is fact I admit, though I try to say it's opinion if I remember. What are you referring to? Maybe I can learn or shed more light on what I'm talking about.

 

[Emperoff]

Atfer everything I've seen and researched and tried it really does seem to be three issues with modellers; 1.) IR"s (because of reasons in my prev post) , 2.) some tyoe of harmonic content definiency thing happening due to lack of tube preamp, but I don't think that's that big of a deal really compared to 3.) lack of real power tube section. I think this is huge in terms of feel and oomph. I think it's probably possible to dial it all in without it still but probably need to be familiar with the amp your dialing in to get there.

Full signal modelling (captures) sounds and feels the best and eliminates most of those issues. You just need to find one you like. It took me like 10 minutes with ToneX