Tube amps are dying luxury.... Do you agree?

[Captain Shoggoth]

IMO provided you've got a decent signal chain, it's the cab that makes it, anything through a cab gives me that "yeah this is GEETAR" feeling. Playing my Kemper through studio monitors or a PA lacks that psychological oomph (as a tradeoff for a massively convenient recording+FOH solution), but through a cab it feels essentially as powerful and vital as a tube amp - without all the baggage in the form of annoying behaviour, needing a gate + pedalboard in front to sculpt the tone, not to mention the physical fragility of the tubes.

I never got into tube heads so if anything I vastly prefer the modelling workflow because it works like software (which most of us are accustomed to using in most aspects of life), as opposed to mid-century analog arcana that you have to feel out with time & experience & burst eardrums from excess feedback. Playing a real 5150III or JCM800 feels awesome but is in no way worth the hassle of replacing my Kemper with one.

In an age where average earnings from anything, let alone music, continue to precipitously decline relative to cost of living, I don't see tube amps as being practical for anyone who's not a big act. My bandmate's Bugera is less than a decade old and the tubes +circuitry are already knackered. He could have splurged for a 5150 but then combined with a cab and pedalboard you're approaching the cost of a modeler which will do far more in far more contexts, without ever failing. Even my other Kemper diehard friend mostly uses Neural DSP stuff in his home studio which IMO works more easily for recording than any tube amp or any of the big modelers

 

[Wiltonauer]

It’s great when modelers do cool new things, but sonically I can’t think of many that I would actually care about. Mixing and matching modeled parts of modeled amps sounds pretty great, but that’s still derivative of physical amps that have already been successful. Sad to say, that’s about how imaginative I am when it comes to music and sound — I usually want to get sounds I’ve already heard coming from other gear (even if I was the one playing), so the goal is already set for me on getting the sounds of great tube amps from something that’s less of a pain in the ass. Lower cost of ownership, less weight, less hassle, more features, more versatility.

I still love tube amps; I just don’t want to deal with them all the time. I plan on buying more in the future, but my expectations for them aren’t what they used to be.

I would play with new capabilities if they were there, but I wouldn’t be the person dreaming up the most innovative stuff. There’s just so much out there already — way more than I’ll ever have the time or money to take in, as a hobbyist whose day job has nothing to do with music. There are only so many new sounds I have time left to hear.

 

[TedEH]

it's the cab that makes it, anything through a cab gives me that "yeah this is GEETAR" feeling

So I've been using an FM3+PS170 for a few months now, and busted out the old Mark IV last week - playing through the same cab. For as good as the digital stuff works, plugging in that old beast is just an instant smile.

The tube amp is still just doing something more than the modelling is, and I think it's about the interaction with the cab. When you get into the weeds of Fractal presets, a lot of what makes/breaks a sound can be the impedance curve because solid state amps don't interact the same way.

I think what people like about tube amps is the complexity of the sound. There's an interaction with cabs. There's an interaction with rooms. There's a complexity to how tubes distort, there's complexity to how the eq filters are implemented, etc. Digital sounds don't have that complexity until you build it into the model - and certain types of that complexity can't quite be replicated exactly. At this time, no modeller can accurately respond to the properties of the playback system it's playing through the way that a tube amp does. You can fake it if you know how to do it, but as soon as you switch to another cab (or another IR?) then the response changes and you're back to square one, so it's impractical.

That doesn't mean that tube amps are better, but it means that the two setups will always be different, and if they're always different then there will always be a market for both.

 

[Elric]

Its funny because when I play my modelers, I always think this sounds great, but kinda boring because it is all in the box. Then I plug in my tube amps and pedals, with wires everywhere like a mad scientist, and then I think this sounds great, but what a mess. It would be nice to have this all simplified in one box..... back and forth I go, lol.

For the people who are serious gear geeks, there is another appeal with tube amps/traditional gear that is missing from digital: the thrill of the chase... Looking for that one of a kind, elusive, special piece that contains the 'sound in your head'. Until it doesn't. And then you gotta get another piece to add to the stable.

Hence all the mods, tweaks, boutique builders, etc. Analog gear is just so interesting/unique and if you have the 'collector' personality type, it is hard to resist the grail tone quest.

 

[Elric]

W.r.t. Latency: None of the hardware modelers has latency sufficient on its own to make any kind of difference to anyone when used stand alone based on all th stuff I have seen on the topic. The legit concern for latency is cascading latencies if you use more than one digital unit since they are going to add as they chain to one another and that could definitely cross the point where it'll become detectable if you had enough stuff.

So if you have a bunch of stand alone digital units you might become concerned with front to back latency of the signal chain and any potential phase issues due to the way the digital units are configured. But really, something like an AxeFx -> power amp -> Cab ; might as well be a tube amp. IMHO.

 

[budda]

@TedEH instant smile because its familiar and home base.

Grab a jcm900 and see if you get the same reaction.

 

[technomancer]

@TedEH instant smile because its familiar and home base.

Grab a jcm900 and see if you get the same reaction.

Nope sorry, instant smile because there is just something not there with modelers. I'm not one of the rabid anti-modeler guys but having played both and owned both including a recent FM3 latest gen fractal blah blah, modelers sound very good but there is still just something that a good tube amp has that modelers do not currently capture.

If I was gigging I would make due in a heartbeat, but playing for fun my tube amps win every time.

 

[budda]

Nope sorry, instant smile because there is just something not there with modelers. I'm not one of the rabid anti-modeler guys but having played both and owned both including a recent FM3 latest gen fractal blah blah, modelers sound very good but there is still just something that a good tube amp has that modelers do not currently capture.

If I was gigging I would make due in a heartbeat, but playing for fun my tube amps win every time.

I have a 5150 script 2ft from my axefx.

Replace amp you know and love with a well regarded amp you dont know and love and the reaction is gonna change. The amp is still tube, the tone can still be great, but the immediate “i am happy *because this is my sound*” may not be there.

Its not black and white.

 

[Sermo Lupi]

Forgive me if this point has already been made:

A facsimile will never fully replace the original, even if the facsimile comes with objective benefits (lower cost, better convenience, etc.) It's a observation that applies to far more than just guitars and amps.

Obviously the price of rack gear has come down somewhat with the advent of home-use digital effects, and the question would naturally be 'why can't that happen with tube amps if the digital facsimiles become a convincing replica?'. It's an interesting question, I just can't see it ever happening to a point where tube amps disappear or are next to worthless. The difference to the situation with rack gear would be that tube amps aren't window dressing. An amp is as essential to the musical equation as the electric guitar its amplifying.

The only way I can see tube amps disappearing or becoming cheap afterthoughts (e.g. >$500 pieces of gear you buy as a compromise) is if the last several decades of music made with them significantly diminishes in popularity, and new music made with digital amps replaces the status quo. At that point, we'd move on from using the term digital 'modellers', as well as deriving our interest in the modellers as being a copy of something else. Thinking here of the soundscape of synth-heavy 80s music and how the digital gear producing that formed its own paradigm separate from traditional guitar gear.

None of the above means that changes aren't coming. 99% of people aren't buying old Boogies for $15k, or Dumbles for 10x that, when modellers are available. Likewise, maybe those astronomical prices come down somewhat over time as modellers and plugins become more common.

However, will we ever see a day where $1k-$2k tube amplifiers can't be found in music stores aside from being pawn shop relics? Not any time soon, in my opinion.

 

[budda]

Show of hands, who has bought or plans to buy a new tube amp in 2023? Not used, new.

 

[LiveOVErdrive]

Another important point : big, chonky hardware is cool and fun to fiddle with.

This applies to both modelers and amps. ITB modeler plugin on a PC? Yawn. That same plugin with it's knobs mapped to a beefy midi controller? Gimme.

 

[technomancer]

I have a 5150 script 2ft from my axefx.

Replace amp you know and love with a well regarded amp you dont know and love and the reaction is gonna change. The amp is still tube, the tone can still be great, but the immediate “i am happy *because this is my sound*” may not be there.

Its not black and white.

Doesn't need to be an amp I know and love... I get it a lot from new things I bring in as well. The 1959HW was an example. Powered it up and just hit a chord and smiled like a fool. Had the same thing in the first 5 minutes with the Mark VII as well. Not to say I necessarily get it from every amp, I have played stuff that I just didn't care for, but I have never gotten that from a modeller or plugin.

That's me though, you do you and play what you want.

Show of hands, who has bought or plans to buy a new tube amp in 2023? Not used, new.

Currently building 3 and planning to move next year so not really planning to buy much else this year. That said I just bought a new 1959HW a couple weeks ago and have my eye on bringing a new VH4 over from Thomann once we are in the new house

 

[TheBlackBard]

Hey all, if this is against the rules, reprimand me and anything else you have to do but I have a question about effects from modelers such as reverb and delay and chorus and such. Would using effects from modelers yield decent results coming through a Rockerverb? I have thought about using modeling for effects, feels like to me that this would be a good way to experience both worlds?

 

[Choop]

Hey all, if this is against the rules, reprimand me and anything else you have to do but I have a question about effects from modelers such as reverb and delay and chorus and such. Would using effects from modelers yield decent results coming through a Rockerverb? I have thought about using modeling for effects, feels like to me that this would be a good way to experience both worlds?

Totally, I used an FX8 with my Mark III and it was rad. The main effects that I haven't really dug with modelers are the drives.

The FX8 as well as a bunch of others like the HX Effects can also change a channel or other footswitchable function on your head, too.

 

[TheBlackBard]

Totally, I used an FX8 with my Mark III and it was rad. The main effects that I haven't really dug with modelers are the drives.

The FX8 as well as a bunch of others like the HX Effects can also change a channel or other footswitchable function on your head, too.

So I could go from the clean on my amp with some effects from the modeler to the high gain channel AND cut the effects off at the same time?

 

[Choop]

So I could go from the clean on my amp with some effects from the modeler to the high gain channel AND cut the effects off at the same time?

Yeah! At least with the FX8 and pretty sure the HX Effects, it works like a loop switcher with all of the built in effects. With the FX8 I could assign the effects order to be pre and post for 4 cable method. I think Fractal has defaulted to having the FM3/FM9 take the place of the AX8/FX8, but they could work the same way...as well as any Helix stuff.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

Hey all, if this is against the rules, reprimand me and anything else you have to do but I have a question about effects from modelers such as reverb and delay and chorus and such. Would using effects from modelers yield decent results coming through a Rockerverb? I have thought about using modeling for effects, feels like to me that this would be a good way to experience both worlds?

Totally.

Outside the weird analog vs. digital debate mixing the two has been, for a long time, the best of all worlds.

The delays, reverbs, various modulation effects, etc. on stuff like the AxeFx are world class and the ease of being able to setup, arrange, and recall digitally makes using tons of effects with various parameters so much more convenient.

 

[TedEH]

Grab a jcm900 and see if you get the same reaction.

I used to have a DSL40C, and I'm a fan of the Fractal JCM800 models - so I think I really would have a similar reaction to the real thing. While the DSL's gain style wasn't quite to my taste, it still did the cab resonance interaction thing that I don't think modellers have quite right yet. I'm sure I have all the terminology wrong, but there's still something about a tube amp and a speaker together that does something to low end that no model I've ever played through has been able to do. You can get close enough for any practical situation, but it's still different.

In practical terms, I just got home from a jam where it was me and my FM3 next to a Roadster, both through almost-identical recto cabs. I've got it dialed close enough that I don't think anyone else in the room could really tell the difference unless they were looking for it and nitpicking and were familiar enough with what a recto feels like to play through in the first place. No audience could ever really tell the difference, I'm sure of it. Recorded, nobody would know the difference.

That being said, if I suddenly had no gear and needed something tomorrow - I would probably buy a new tube amp before replacing the modeller. I really enjoy the FM3, I think it does a fantastic job, but I would still buy the tube amp first - for guitar. For bass, I would replace the FM3 first because it's the most practical solution.

 

[Alsvartr]

Are millennials killing the tube amp industry?

 

[crimson]

Considering how difficult it's been for me to sell my ENGL gigmaster combo locally, I would say that it might be dying out. Many of the people I solicit for trades often say they're switching to digital.

I can't really blame them as I also play through a digital set up most of the time.