True Temperament Collaborating With Cor-Tek

[ixlramp]

A purely consonant JI guitar. I get that it's in just one key, but it would be super cool to compose on, as you wouldn't have to worry about the different keys.

The limitation is actually that a particular JI scale cannot be moved to a different key without changing the scale into something else.
However, placing the tonic on different frets results in the modes of the initial JI scale, these are essentially different JI scales, some more dissonant than others.
So (assuming 12 frets per octave) you would have 12 different JI scales to work with, but each fixed to a particular tonic note.

 

[ixlramp]

Ugh sorry, i confused scales and tonal systems in part of the above, that should read:

The limitation is actually that a particular JI scale cannot be moved to a different key without changing the scale (the step sizes change).
However, placing the tonic on different frets results in different JI tonal systems, some more dissonant than others.
So (assuming 12 frets per octave) you would have 12 different JI tonal systems to work with.

 

[Hollowway]

However, placing the tonic on different frets results in different JI tonal systems, some more dissonant than others.

You mean like modes?

 

[bostjan]

You mean like modes?

Yeah, like modes where each mode is in a different tuning, and some of the tunings sound objectively sour.
The major scale, we think of as whole steps and half steps: wwhwwwh. But in JI, there are two different whole steps (say we call the bigger one W and the smaller one w) and sometimes two different half steps. So, the major scale is WwhWwWh. If you start on the fifth, you should get mixolydian, but it'd be wWhWwhW, so the second is noticeably flat compared to the major scale. Some of the modes end up being even more difficult to listen to, but none of them are unrecognizable or anything, and nothing sounds awful (just a little foreign).
Since all of the notes are (in theory) ratios with every other note, every interval is, by definition a just interval. It just might not be the interval most people agree is the best one to represent the intervals in the scale.

 

[Hollowway]

Yeah, like modes where each mode is in a different tuning, and some of the tunings sound objectively sour.
The major scale, we think of as whole steps and half steps: wwhwwwh. But in JI, there are two different whole steps (say we call the bigger one W and the smaller one w) and sometimes two different half steps. So, the major scale is WwhWwWh. If you start on the fifth, you should get mixolydian, but it'd be wWhWwhW, so the second is noticeably flat compared to the major scale. Some of the modes end up being even more difficult to listen to, but none of them are unrecognizable or anything, and nothing sounds awful (just a little foreign).
Since all of the notes are (in theory) ratios with every other note, every interval is, by definition a just interval. It just might not be the interval most people agree is the best one to represent the intervals in the scale.

Are you guys aware of any multi-instrument whole songs (in any genre) done completely with JI instruments? Like, that have a youtube video we could watch?

 

[bostjan]

Are you guys aware of any multi-instrument whole songs (in any genre) done completely with JI instruments? Like, that have a youtube video we could watch?

Live?
Umm... other than string trio or quartet, I might have seen a duet with Tolgahan and another guy. I think Johnny Rosenberg has done a few performances in JI with small symphonic groups, but I don't ever recall seeing a video.
Prerecorded, there are a few. Sevish has done some songs in JI (programmed and sequenced, though). Most all JI music I know of is either 1. Electronic, 2. Very old, 3. Barbershop Quartet, or 4. Someone demonstrating a point.

 

[ixlramp]

'Horse lords' have JI guitar and bass, i assume the sax player alters his intonation.
Apart from their own channel there are several live / live in studio videos.

 

[c7spheres]

^ Wuuh mahn, tune in turn on dropout. Like, wow mann, look at the colourz. Free your mind. Oh no. I'm having a seizure

 

[Hollowway]

Live?
Umm... other than string trio or quartet, I might have seen a duet with Tolgahan and another guy. I think Johnny Rosenberg has done a few performances in JI with small symphonic groups, but I don't ever recall seeing a video.
Prerecorded, there are a few. Sevish has done some songs in JI (programmed and sequenced, though). Most all JI music I know of is either 1. Electronic, 2. Very old, 3. Barbershop Quartet, or 4. Someone demonstrating a point.

So generally speaking, barbershop quartets are singing in “JI” because they have to reason not to, and the ear will natural pull them to the pure tones?

 

[Adieu]

Anyway, this depends on what True Temperament (TT) system Cor-Tek choose. If they have any sense they would choose the TT '12 Tone Equal Temperament' (12TET) system, which offsets frets in a subtle way so that intonation is closer to 12TET, the tonal system that all other instruments use. You would think this is what most guitar players actually want.
Then they can truthfully promote this as being improved intonation and more in tune.

However, i expect they will use the TT 'Thidell Formula 1' (TF1) system and do what TT is doing, deceive by omission and be complicit with the ignorant hype for commercial interest.

We will be able to tell because the 2 TT systems look significantly different:

View attachment 76443

The TT 12TET system (above) is far more subtle as it is only making very small corrections to get closer to 12TET, a well set up guitar is already very close.

View attachment 76444

The TT TF1 system (above) has larger fret offsets as it is also offsetting each tone of 12TET up or down by up to 4 cents to result in an alternative tonal system called a 'Well Temperament'.
Looking at the Strandbergs and the guitars of endorsing artists, most seem to be TT TF1.

The TT TF1 system makes more of an impression on guitarists when they try it because it improves the harmony of chords, and i suspect most guitarists then misunderstand this as meaning the guitar is more closely intonated to 12TET. This misunderstanding is then reinforced by the deception and ignorant hype.

The actual situation is:
If chords have improved harmony, the guitar will be deviating from 12TET.
If the guitar is closely intonated to 12TET, chords cannot have improved harmony.
This is because 12TET inherently results in intervals and chords with imperfect harmony.

This is related to the misunderstanding where a guitarist will notice that the harmony of chords is bad, and then incorrectly conclude that the intonation of the guitar is bad. In fact, even if the guitar is very closely intonated to 12TET the chords will still have bad harmony.
This misunderstanding works in favour of TT, as a guitarist may then experience the improved harmony of chords of the TT TF1 system and conclude that the guitar is more closely intonated to 12TET.

If Cor-Tek choose the TT 12TET system the guitars will lose the 'wow factor' of chords with improved harmony, and just sound like a well set up guitar, this does not have as much commercial potential.

A TT system does improve intonation, but TT often fail to inform that it is more closely intonated to 'the intended tonal system' and what that intended tonal system is.
For the TT TF1 system, the intended tonal system is actually a tonal system known as a 'Well Temperament', which is a deviation from 12TET.
This means they can truthfully state "perfect intonation all over the fretboard", "tunes correctly over the whole register" (even though these are exaggerated and sloppy statements) but they are actually deceiving by what they are not stating.

I have just looked at the TT FAQ. They only offer the TT TF1 system now, but i expect Cor-Tek could use the TT 12TET system if they wanted to. However i think it is unlikely.
The FAQ seems worse now, it is actually deceiving in places, i will cover this in another post.

Oh yeah

The 12TET thing is basically a row of compensated Earvana nuts, slightly shifting depending on fret position

...the TF1 thing, meanwhile, is flashy manic "this is your spiderweb on meth, day 8" shit

 

[ixlramp]

Confirmed, Horse Lords' sax player uses microtonal fingerings to hit the right pitches.

Just remembered Cipher https://soundcloud.com/jolohaga/sets/cipher-songs-1979-1981
5 of those tracks may still be downloadable for free at the link in this article http://goutroy.blogspot.com/2009/11/cipher-selftitled-ep.html
More info found elsewhere:

"The band Cipher (Los Angeles-late 70s to mid 80s) played in a 7-limit 22-tone scale of Erv Wilson. The intonation was done under the guidance of Jose Garcia who refretted all the guitars and bass. Co-composer, Marsha Mann, who was the lead singer and lyricist for the band, also sang in the same tuning. They appeared on New Wave Theater. Cipher is listed and pictured (above The Clash) in the 1985 illustrated encyclopedia, 'Who's New Wave in Music', by David Blanco, who refers to them as a 'microtonal dance band'."

 

[MisterCirKus]

If you want to here some different keys