Speculation is getting out of hand...

narad

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FWIW, my USA Jacksons would probably be listed at similar prices in Reverb now, yet all of them have hit the road. They're guitars, not paintings.

The shame of this is that what was considered pro instruments, now are just "luxury products for collectors" right from the factory. Come on, the David Davidson sig is 9k. Nine-fucking thousand-euros!
Yea, but that's now. A ton of these old Jacksons saw a ton of stages, when they were worth $1200. For a guitar worth $6k and is in mint condition, I'm afraid to take it out in my apartment when my room is messy, let alone a stage where it could be damaged, or the road where it could be stolen. I think you really have to have a not-care attitude for it and I just can't do that for something valued at $6k.

At the heart of it, what's a pro instrument? Do you need to spend $6k to have a guitar suitable for professional situations? How is it any better than the $2k guitars? It's the age-old topic, but a bunch of guys used to travel around and grab whatever production sig guitar was available to do workshops or shows. Probably Paul Gilbert most notably. Mark Holcomb could probably do the same since he's using the SE models, etc. So it's more like .. there are guitars that are fancy or cool, but for guitars as tools, which is what pros are supposed to care about, I find it hard to believe that it's $6k, $9k EUR, etc., or bust.

Just checking again now, like a $3k guitar in 2010 (which is basically what USA warriors were) would be about $4k now in terms of inflation only, and that seems pretty close to what they would be now. I see Axe Palace had a special spec pre-order at $4500. While there are definitely deals that we all missed out on, I don't think the new stuff is now outrageously priced etc. vs what it once was. I don't know what a full-on custom shop would have been, which is basically what the dave davidsons are now.
 
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mastapimp

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Just checking again now, like a $3k guitar in 2010 (which is basically what USA warriors were) would be about $4k now in terms of inflation only, and that seems pretty close to what they would be now. I see Axe Palace had a special spec pre-order at $4500. While there are definitely deals that we all missed out on, I don't think the new stuff is now outrageously priced etc. vs what it once was. I don't know what a full-on custom shop would have been, which is basically what the dave davidsons are now.
I paid $2200 for a new broderick 7 trans white in 2012...same guitar is going for $4800 right now on sweetwater. Even if they knock off a few hundred dollars, it's still double the price in 10 years time.

Paid $3700 for one of the masterbuilt davidson WR7s in 2016. A few years later, they were selling the 2nd run caramelized ash WR7s for $5300 at musiczoo. They'll likely go for $6000+ if they make another run of them this year.

You can always talk the dealers down, and that's exactly what I did for both of the jacksons I mentioned, but even so, I believe they've gone up more than just inflation.
 

Emperoff

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Yea, but that's now. A ton of these old Jacksons saw a ton of stages, when they were worth $1200. For a guitar worth $6k and is in mint condition, I'm afraid to take it out in my apartment when my room is messy, let alone a stage where it could be damaged, or the road where it could be stolen. I think you really have to have a not-care attitude for it and I just can't do that for something valued at $6k.

At the heart of it, what's a pro instrument? Do you need to spend $6k to have a guitar suitable for professional situations? How is it any better than the $2k guitars? It's the age-old topic, but a bunch of guys used to travel around and grab whatever production sig guitar was available to do workshops or shows. Probably Paul Gilbert most notably. Mark Holcomb could probably do the same since he's using the SE models, etc. So it's more like .. there are guitars that are fancy or cool, but for guitars as tools, which is what pros are supposed to care about, I find it hard to believe that it's $6k, $9k EUR, etc., or bust.

Just checking again now, like a $3k guitar in 2010 (which is basically what USA warriors were) would be about $4k now in terms of inflation only, and that seems pretty close to what they would be now. I see Axe Palace had a special spec pre-order at $4500. While there are definitely deals that we all missed out on, I don't think the new stuff is now outrageously priced etc. vs what it once was. I don't know what a full-on custom shop would have been, which is basically what the dave davidsons are now.

You're missing the point. The point is that those instruments shouldn't have those outrageous price tags to begin with. Inflation is not a excuse since the math just doesn't add up.

A used 3,5k guitar listed at 6k is not really a 6k guitar. The problem is scalpers are turning tools into luxury items.
Paid $3700 for one of the masterbuilt davidson WR7s in 2016. A few years later, they were selling the 2nd run caramelized ash WR7s for $5300 at musiczoo. They'll likely go for $6000+ if they make another run of them this year.

$9000 in Thomann, to be exact.
 

narad

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You're missing the point. The point is that those instruments shouldn't have those outrageous price tags to begin with. Inflation is not a excuse since the math just doesn't add up.

A used 3,5k guitar listed at 6k is not really a 6k guitar. The problem is scalpers are turning tools into luxury items.


$9000 in Thomann, to be exact.

Honestly I think inflation takes care of most of it, and you almost have to cherry pick models to find situations where it doesn't. Like the main catalog models, the soloists, the dinkys, the warriors, etc., in normal production spec, are pretty much in line with inflation. I talked some numbers that pretty much add up. How off was that? 10%? We're also coming out of a pandemic situation where the costs of all logistics and materials was way up.

Like yea, Gibson asks like $14k for a korina explorer now, there's always going to be these outlier models. But on the average catalog "pro" model, how off is it now vs then just looking at inflation?
 

Emperoff

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Honestly I think inflation takes care of most of it, and you almost have to cherry pick models to find situations where it doesn't. Like the main catalog models, the soloists, the dinkys, the warriors, etc., in normal production spec, are pretty much in line with inflation. I talked some numbers that pretty much add up. How off was that? 10%? We're also coming out of a pandemic situation where the costs of all logistics and materials was way up.

Like yea, Gibson asks like $14k for a korina explorer now, there's always going to be these outlier models. But on the average catalog "pro" model, how off is it now vs then just looking at inflation?

You are mixing different scenarios. One one hand, this thread is about speculation of used guitars. I purchased two of my USA Jackson 7s in 2019 at 2150$ and 2900$ from dealers (Music Zoo and Chondro Guitars) in mint condition in 2019. For reference similar guitars are listed at 6-9k in dealers now (and in worse condition). That is not a 10% price offset. And I'm talking 4 years here, not 15.

On the other hand, guitar manufacturers are riding the wave the same way GPU manufacturers did with the crypto miners. Crypto guys skyrocketed the price of graphic cards due to speculation, and manufacturers doubled (or more) the MSRP of their cards due to the increased demand. This is exactly what Jackson (and others) are doing, while blaming the pandemic for it.

"Main catalog models" don't make much sense on this thread since obviously speculation is moot in widely available products.
 

MaxOfMetal

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You are mixing different scenarios. One one hand, this thread is about speculation of used guitars. I purchased two of my USA Jackson 7s in 2019 at 2150$ and 2900$ from dealers (Music Zoo and Chondro Guitars) in mint condition in 2019. For reference similar guitars are listed at 6-9k in dealers now (and in worse condition). That is not a 10% price offset. And I'm talking 4 years here, not 15.

On the other hand, guitar manufacturers are riding the wave the same way GPU manufacturers did with the crypto miners. Crypto guys skyrocketed the price of graphic cards due to speculation, and manufacturers doubled (or more) the MSRP of their cards due to the increased demand. This is exactly what Jackson (and others) are doing, while blaming the pandemic for it.

"Main catalog models" don't make much sense on this thread since obviously speculation is moot in widely available products.

Production bottlenecks at Jackson way predate the Pandemic. It was inevitable that the price of certain configurations would skyrocket when availability vanished with no clear road to returning.

If you could still order 7s there would be no incentive to price them as high.

Jackson saw a huge influx of Custom Selects, which gave them two options: halt orders or price them high enough to limit orders in general. They went with the latter and here we are.

So yeah, some guitars went up in value overnight, but that was driven by supply tanking, not just everyone deciding they were more expensive.
 

Emperoff

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Production bottlenecks at Jackson way predate the Pandemic. It was inevitable that the price of certain configurations would skyrocket when availability vanished with no clear road to returning.

If you could still order 7s there would be no incentive to price them as high.

Jackson saw a huge influx of Custom Selects, which gave them two options: halt orders or price them high enough to limit orders in general. They went with the latter and here we are.

So yeah, some guitars went up in value overnight, but that was driven by supply tanking, not just everyone deciding they were more expensive.

While most of this is true, USA 7s were already out of the Custom Select line waaaay before the pandemic. And the prices weren't so insane, as mentioned (mine were actually dealer models).
 

MaxOfMetal

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While most of this is true, USA 7s were already out of the Custom Select line waaaay before the pandemic. And the prices weren't so insane, as mentioned (mine were actually dealer models).

They were Masterbuilt though, and they stopped taking Masterbuilt orders for 7s long before the jump in price for Selects.
 

Emperoff

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They were Masterbuilt though, and they stopped taking Masterbuilt orders for 7s long before the jump in price for Selects.

That's what I mean. You could purchase dealer exclusive models at sensible prices (even if you couldn't custom spec one) just 4 years ago.
 

MaxOfMetal

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That's what I mean. You could purchase dealer exclusive models at sensible prices (even if you couldn't custom spec one) just 4 years ago.

Four years is a long time in this space for stuff to be unavailable.

The only tamper on the price of this sort of stuff is the ability to source a different one outside of the market.
 

narad

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You are mixing different scenarios. One one hand, this thread is about speculation of used guitars. I purchased two of my USA Jackson 7s in 2019 at 2150$ and 2900$ from dealers (Music Zoo and Chondro Guitars) in mint condition in 2019. For reference similar guitars are listed at 6-9k in dealers now (and in worse condition). That is not a 10% price offset. And I'm talking 4 years here, not 15.

On the other hand, guitar manufacturers are riding the wave the same way GPU manufacturers did with the crypto miners. Crypto guys skyrocketed the price of graphic cards due to speculation, and manufacturers doubled (or more) the MSRP of their cards due to the increased demand. This is exactly what Jackson (and others) are doing, while blaming the pandemic for it.

"Main catalog models" don't make much sense on this thread since obviously speculation is moot in widely available products.

Well ya, this thread is all over the place. I think you've also blurred the line between collectable instruments and pro instruments. I mention catalogs because I think the Jackson USA line is presumably pro level instruments, so if the argument is that pros can't afford pro instruments, I don't buy it. And by talking catalogs, we can actually talk catalog prices and not whatever price someone managed to get something for the one time (no basis for a general argument).

And if we're talking about rare limited runs of collectable instruments, then, well, we're not talking about "needs" anymore. I want stuff too. I don't always get it, but there are definitely enough guitars to serve any creative or professional inkling I have or would ever be capable of having.
 

eaeolian

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Reverb speculation and the pandemic have definitely drive the price surge in Chushin Gakki Jacksons. Prior to the pandemic, you could buy Japanese DK2Ms for $500 all day. They're just now getting back to that point.
 

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It's called Leboncoin in France but good luck having french sellers selling anything to a foreigner and shipping it outside of France ;)
yeah the french are tough they hardly respond to anything asked non french
 

Emperoff

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For uh, illustrative purposes...

That's mental. :nuts:

This one is from a friend in case you're looking for one:
 

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I don't know... it works both ways. If it's more valuable to him to have the guitar than $5900, then the market is also speaking.

I've personally been thinking lately that everything has a price, why don't I just list every thing I own at a price that I would be happy selling it for? Even the things I don't want to sell. It seems basically like a no-lose situation, since it's not like I have to pay for these ads sitting around for a year or two because it turns out that I value it more than anyone else. But in reality, even if you say no offers, people will message you non-stop with offers, and so that basically keeps me from doing it.
It's funny. Just now I was hunting for a 6-string Evertune locally, and was accepting offers. For the listing I wrote with all caps "NO SOLARS".
First offer; "I see that you wrote no Solars... but this one is really good, you really wanna check this one out!". Didn't even bother to reply :D
 

Robslalaina

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It's funny. Just now I was hunting for a 6-string Evertune locally, and was accepting offers. For the listing I wrote with all caps "NO SOLARS".
First offer; "I see that you wrote no Solars... but this one is really good, you really wanna check this one out!". Didn't even bother to reply :D
The only situation where I'd consider a Solar is if the inlay has darkened to the point it is no longer visible. I would then proceed to rounding off the horns and headstock and give it a refinish so it basically... no longer looks like a Solar, I know...

That's mental. :nuts:

This one is from a friend in case you're looking for one:
Thanks but nah, I'm trying to stop buying Ibanez guitars for a change!
 

Neon_Knight_

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The only situation where I'd consider a Solar is if the inlay has darkened to the point it is no longer visible. I would then proceed to rounding off the horns and headstock and give it a refinish so it basically... no longer looks like a Solar, I know...


Thanks but nah, I'm trying to stop buying Ibanez guitars for a change!
So you're going to buy a Solar and mod it into an RG instead of buying an Ibanez? :lol:
 

MAJ Meadows SF

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Honestly I think inflation takes care of most of it, and you almost have to cherry pick models to find situations where it doesn't. Like the main catalog models, the soloists, the dinkys, the warriors, etc., in normal production spec, are pretty much in line with inflation. I talked some numbers that pretty much add up. How off was that? 10%? We're also coming out of a pandemic situation where the costs of all logistics and materials was way up.

Like yea, Gibson asks like $14k for a korina explorer now, there's always going to be these outlier models. But on the average catalog "pro" model, how off is it now vs then just looking at inflation?
Not many of Gibson's normal customs and below went way up. It's the desirable outliars. Like the Adam Jones runs. The VOS model is not a $6K guitar (does not stay in tune well) vs a regular LP custom, but the price wasn't ridiculous. Then the secondary market doubled it, which is nuts even for a collectable. That artist line is a unique case because of how long it took Gibons to finally release an actual Adam Jones guitar, but several others that are less unique are favorably priced. ESP artist models kind of float in the same direction. Doing my research in custom shop ESP builds, they are going to jump above most of the artist models by 15-20%. There are some brands that are getting blown up by scalping and inflation and others that are not. A lot of it has to do with collectability, being artist models, and lower production with still high demand.

The Jackson Misha sig Dinky is not a $5K instrument in my opinion, but what factors drove it to that? As we've all listed, it's more than just one thing. What gets me into a fit are the used prices. Or refurbs slapped together and sold for higher than an imported counterpart (BC Rich). And some people are asking for ridiculous money for even collectables, like the one-piece top Dime Slime for $33K or the Jupiter painted Jackson Warrior Pro for $12K.

This isn't exclusive to musical instruments. I've previously stated automotive prices for used stuff has boomed to the point where there is no point in buying used in many situations. Firearms have been the same way. Knights Armament Co (KAC) is regarded as one of the top AR builders in existence; my use in the military and the sizeable federal contracts they have can conquer. But there is no way they should be priced 50-75% higher than they were based on performance and machining. Scarcity from production and demand have driven the prices up as expected, but a lot of it is out of control by scalping. Inflation is used as an excuse a bit too much. Just because production is down and worldwide logistics has slowed doesn't mean items should be priced into oblivion.
For uh, illustrative purposes...
Ok now what in the cinnamon toast fuck is this? I bought one of these for $1200 used about eight years ago, sold it for $1K 6 years ago. Some of these prices are like the afternoon jewelry shows designed to prey on geriatrics with social security checks. There's been a couple of guitars I've been watching that are priced like
 


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