Reel-to-reel tape machine recording

[AwakenTheSkies]

Not sure if this is the right forum for this but maybe one of you has one...I'm thinking of buying one of these. You know, to add character to my recordings. Going for a vintage feel. I know an artist who uses one for that and it sounds really good.

Do I have to buy a really expensive one to do the job? I see some options which cost 300€ and some which cost 1500€..they're all really old obviously, 70s and 80s.

How does the tape thing work? Can I reuse a tape? You know like a cassette that you rewind and record over the old one.. Or I have to keep buying new ones? Are they expensive and hard to find?

 

[Hollowway]

Are you going for the sound or authenticity? You can add in that analog tape compression digitally, if you want. If you’re more going for the old school technique, etc, then that’s a different story. You could even do old school flanging, etc.

 

[Sylim]

i never worked with actual tape machines. i´ve only watched videos on the subject and it seems there´s a good reason why they´re not used in the studio anymore. they can be complicated to set up and maintain. and old units may very well need some maintanance first. when you dive into it not knowing how it´s done and all you want is the sound but not the hassle, you might be in for a world of hurt. if you´re only after the sound you might want to try some plugins first.

 

[Lozek]

i never worked with actual tape machines. i´ve only watched videos on the subject and it seems there´s a good reason why they´re not used in the studio anymore. they can be complicated to set up and maintain. and old units may very well need some maintanance first. when you dive into it not knowing how it´s done and all you want is the sound but not the hassle, you might be in for a world of hurt. if you´re only after the sound you might want to try some plugins first.

Exactly this. I'm old enough to have recorded to tape when computers weren't an option, it is costly, difficult and requires a large amount of maintenance. You're also not likely to get the desirable 'studio tape sound' (if that's what you're looking to achieve) unless you're using a huge pro machine like a Studer. Most of the studio guys who could get analogue consoles/tape machines to sound fantastic back in the day were pretty much artists utilising years of experience on their tools, just like the musicians they were recording.

 

[AwakenTheSkies]

i never worked with actual tape machines. i´ve only watched videos on the subject and it seems there´s a good reason why they´re not used in the studio anymore. they can be complicated to set up and maintain. and old units may very well need some maintanance first. when you dive into it not knowing how it´s done and all you want is the sound but not the hassle, you might be in for a world of hurt. if you´re only after the sound you might want to try some plugins first.

I don't expect this to be easy. The whole trying a tube amp thing has really opened my eyes towards using analogue gear. All these years I've seen people shill amp sims and modellers saying that "they sound the same these days" and now that I've tried one it's obviously different. Now I want to try a different recording method entirely, tape machine, maybe some old multitrack.. I can't take out the digital aspect for the editing and processing, but maybe I can take it out for the recording! I guess the first step to know for sure is to buy one...

 

[Emperoff]

I would suggest to invest in some Acustica Audio plugins (like taupe) instead. Will get you there with much less hassle. Tube amp vs. modeller is nothing compared to modern recording vs tape recording. As said above, there's a good reason why is not done anymore.

If you're up to a masochystic route, then just get one and experiment. Make sure you have someone competent that can work on them as well, because you WILL need it. There used to be people whose only job was tape machines maintenance.

 

[AwakenTheSkies]

I would suggest to invest in some Acustica Audio plugins (like taupe) instead. Will get you there with much less hassle. Tube amp vs. modeller is nothing compared to modern recording vs tape recording. As said above, there's a good reason why is not done anymore.

If you're up to a masochystic route, then just get one and experiment. Make sure you have someone competent that can work on them as well, because you WILL need it. There used to be people whose only job was tape machines maintenance.

I have Cream 2 from Acoustica and honestly I don't like it. I don't like the plugin and I really don't like the Aquarius product manager thing..

But for the tape machine, I see some of them advertised for sale used and they say it's in working condition...what's the worst that could happen?

 

[MaxOfMetal]

I have Cream 2 from Acoustica and honestly I don't like it. I don't like the plugin and I really don't like the Aquarius product manager thing..

But for the tape machine, I see some of them advertised for sale used and they say it's in working condition...what's the worst that could happen?

As you'll find out, "working" is a fairly ambiguous term with these things.

 

[Sylim]

But for the tape machine, I see some of them advertised for sale used and they say it's in working condition...what's the worst that could happen?

i think the term "working condition" in any kind of used market is very ambiguous and needs to be followed up on to make sure it´s in good condition. i mean a car can be in working condition but still be a rusted piece of junk, falling apart at the seams and get you killed after two corners.

in terms of tape machines the motors have to be in good condition so they turn the tape smoothly and evenly. you don´t wanna have any weird wobble happening there. also the read and write heads need to be in good condition and set up properly so the whole magnetization process actually works how it needs to. and all that is dialed in on the electronics level.
i mean sure, you can go for it, might be a fun project actually. i´d just recommend you do some solid research on it before dishing out that kind of money and possibly end up disappointed and frustrated.

 

[Winspear]

If you're not satisfied with the sound of a plugin and care only about the sound, try some other ones. Maybe even some simple stuff like Softtube saturation knob. That old sound is a sum of many parts , just just tape recording , which is simulated well by many plugin options.
I think the value here needs to be put on user experience and approach, rather than result. I actually want one of these things myself, or even just a basic cassette recorder - to enjoy using it, and to encourage recording of improvised performances without further editing. And for a bit of a garbled and experimental sound coming from lack of maintenance for that 'extra worn' aesthetic. Trying to keep them maintained for simply characterful but otherwise 'perfect' recordings seems like a bit of a nightmare. And if that's all you care about rather than enjoying the user experience, plugins really are the way to go

 

[AwakenTheSkies]

If you're not satisfied with the sound of a plugin and care only about the sound, try some other ones. Maybe even some simple stuff like Softtube saturation knob. That old sound is a sum of many parts , just just tape recording , which is simulated well by many plugin options.
I think the value here needs to be put on user experience and approach, rather than result. I actually want one of these things myself, or even just a basic cassette recorder - to enjoy using it, and to encourage recording of improvised performances without further editing. And for a bit of a garbled and experimental sound coming from lack of maintenance for that 'extra worn' aesthetic. Trying to keep them maintained for simply characterful but otherwise 'perfect' recordings seems like a bit of a nightmare. And if that's all you care about rather than enjoying the user experience, plugins really are the way to go

I'm looking for the whole deal honestly, to experiment. I don't want it as a compressor or as a saturator. It's really hard to disappoint me because I am looking for extreme results, not just a subtle effect to use in a modern production. I don't even care if it slightly messes up the tuning, the timing, or makes it sound lo-fi, because I am looking for those imperfections.

And honestly I think I'm pretty much done with buying plugins, I think I already have everything I need. Now I want preamps, mics, outboard gear, pedals, etc. Effects with actual personality. I'm sick of the plugin world and it's crazy marketing.

 

[Winspear]

That's fair, I'm right there with you on that I guess take a deep dive down Gearslutz (or whatever it was renamed to) threads for some weeks before committing to anything

 

[wheresthefbomb]

My friend had some gear for this but we were always too intimidated to try it. I've actually been looking into analog recording, but to cassette tapes. My friend has an old tascam unit and I've been collecting flats of factory sealed cassettes for years.

Good luck. I find that I prefer the simplicity, immediacy, and observable functionality of analog over digital options in most cases, musical and otherwise.

 

[c7spheres]

The answer is tape isn't worth it unless you really must have specifically what it offers, which isn't really much anymore. It's like vinyl. It doesn't make sense unless you're trying to recreate that specific experience. Like Korn on vinyl. It just doesn't make any sense unless you really must have it. Totally not worth it. I've worked on those machines and can tell you now that if you just want that character the noise from gear itself goes further. If you must have real tape compression and roll off's then you gotta do it. - You can also take a master to a studio and run a pass though the machine to 2" and see if you like it before investing further or maybe go to a studio and lay a track down first.
- It's super expensive to do it well, but if you just wanna lo-fi something up then slam it through a cassette deck for $10 at the Goodwill and use a Lo bias tape, run it at slow speed while recording etc. It's when you want quality that it gets expensive. These machines are awesome and the best stuff of all time was basically recorded on them, but you also must have all the other stuff that goes with it too to make it that good like the console, pre's, eq's etc. but for basic utility and vibe 'normal' cassettes go a long way. For old school mid grade stuff from back in the day check out the 8 and 16 trackers like Fostex, Vestax, Tascam etc. Lot's of stuff was made on those and they can get good results. If I remember right a Metallica and Eurythmics album was done on stuff like those.

 

[Drew]

I'm looking for the whole deal honestly, to experiment. I don't want it as a compressor or as a saturator. It's really hard to disappoint me because I am looking for extreme results, not just a subtle effect to use in a modern production. I don't even care if it slightly messes up the tuning, the timing, or makes it sound lo-fi, because I am looking for those imperfections.

And honestly I think I'm pretty much done with buying plugins, I think I already have everything I need. Now I want preamps, mics, outboard gear, pedals, etc. Effects with actual personality. I'm sick of the plugin world and it's crazy marketing.

So, I have a bunch of slightly unrelated thoughts.

1) Tape recording is, these days, a very niche, specialized subject. If you want guidance here, this is probably the wrong board. I haven't posted much there in recent years, but Homerecording.com has a pretty good section on analog hardware and I'm sure at least a couple regulars there do still track to tape, or have loads of experience they can share even if they've since switched to digital.

2) the irony of tape record is, well, for most of recording history up until the rise of the digital era, people had been pushing tehnology further and further to icrease usable headroom, increase transparency, and lower the noisefloor... and then digital comes around and you have vast improvements in ALL of that... and suddenly everyone is preaching the "warmth" and "coloration" and "compression" of tape.

3) if you want all of those things in #2, my personal thoughts is I'd stick with digital for the clear advantages it has over tape - infinite repeatability (tape degrades not just with recording, but with playback), nondestructive editing, massive usable headroom, ease of storage, and infinite track count. But, I'd start building out your analog signal chain coming into the digital doman - mic pres, hardware equalizers, hardware compressors, possibly even some of the hardware tape sim stuff like the Neve 500-series strip bees knees was talking about recently... and add all of your "color" before printing audio, not during.

 

[Drew]

Oh - and I'm not saying "ask somewhere else" because I'm trying to minimize your question or suggesting it's not worth it or just being dismissive or anything like that. It totally is worth running this question down if it's interesting to you. It's just, oh, trying to think of a good metaphor here.... but it's like this is a Ford forum, and in the midst of a bunch of posts about F150s you're asking about a 1965 Mustang. It's worth asking, but you might want to try a more specialized venue.

 

[AwakenTheSkies]

Oh - and I'm not saying "ask somewhere else" because I'm trying to minimize your question or suggesting it's not worth it or just being dismissive or anything like that. It totally is worth running this question down if it's interesting to you. It's just, oh, trying to think of a good metaphor here.... but it's like this is a Ford forum, and in the midst of a bunch of posts about F150s you're asking about a 1965 Mustang. It's worth asking, but you might want to try a more specialized venue.

Yeah yeah I know 👍👍 I mentioned that as well in the first post. But I don't regret making this thread, I got some cool replies and information too. The other day I met a guy in a store and he said he specialises in old equipment, not only audio though. I could ask him, see if he can point me in the right direction. I'm not 100% set on it being a tape machine, if it's a cassette multitrack recorder or whatever that's fine too, as long as it has a "sound". It's just that I thought the reel-to-reel was the go to for this type of thing.

 

[Drew]

Yeah yeah I know 👍👍 I mentioned that as well in the first post. But I don't regret making this thread, I got some cool replies and information too. The other day I met a guy in a store and he said he specialises in old equipment, not only audio though. I could ask him, see if he can point me in the right direction. I'm not 100% set on it being a tape machine, if it's a cassette multitrack recorder or whatever that's fine too, as long as it has a "sound". It's just that I thought the reel-to-reel was the go to for this type of thing.

Reel to reel IS the way to go, if you care about sound quality. It's just bulky, expensive, you'll go through a LOT of tape and that's expensive, and I'm not kidding when I say that even playing back a recording will ever-so-slightly degrade the audio.

If you REALLY want to track to tape, then I'd suggest a hybrid approach, where you also have a good digital setup. Use that on its own for any demoing or songwriting or throwaway projects, then when you're working on something for release, track to tape, but then immediately dump those tracks into the digital domain, and work on them there.

But, honestly...

Amazon.com : reel to reel tape

Tape is expensive, can't really be reused, takes up a lot of space, and is much harder to work with than digital audio. I'd REALLY consider at least starting with mic preamps and hardware effects processing, in part because you're going to need that stuff anyway if you want to work with tape.

 

[Crungy]

Another vote for growing your outboard collection. Not that plugins are usuless but I prefer getting my tones outside of the box as much as possible.

Is dat tape still around? That might be an easier way to ease into tape with less limitations imposed by reel to reel. Unless reel to reel truly is what you want to work with.

 

[tedtan]

Here’s a basic look at the signal flow of a tape recording. There will be differences from one track to the next, let alone from one session to the next, but this will give you an idea of what happens to the signal.

1. Mic (console or standalone, often times with an output transformer) into a
2. Mic Pre (with input and output transformers) into a
3. EQ (with input and output transformers and inductors) into a
4. Compressor (with input and output transformers) into a
5. Console return (and through the channel output transformer) into the
6. Tracking Tape Recorder input (with input transformer) to
7. Tape (specific high frequency compression; maybe artifacts from noise reduction) to
8. Tape Machine output (with output transformer) into
9. Console Tape return (possibly with input transformer) to
10. Console EQ (with input and output transformers and inductors) into a
11. Console Compressor (possibly with input and output transformers) to
12. Console mixbus and output (with output transformer) to
13. Mixbus Compressor (with input and output transformers) to
14. Mixbus EQ (with input and output transformers) to
15. Mixbus Limiter (with input and output transformers) to
16. Mixdown (2-track) Tape recorder input (with input transformer) to
17. Mixdown Tape Recorder output to A/D converter input (if going to digital master).

And that is just the master. If you want to make analogue copies (vinyl, casstte, reel to reel) you’ll need to make copies of the master to be used as duplication masters and then make duplicates from them, all of which will introduce additional degradations to the final sound.

A couple of people have touched on it, but much of the sound of “tape” is actually the sound of a well rehearsed musician(s) in a good sounding room recording through an analogue signal chain. And note how many transformers there are in that chain! They are not being pushed hard at any stage, but the subtle saturation and phase shifts they impart will add up a little at a time to create much of that analogue tape recording sound. The inductors (and, to a lesser extent, gyrators) used in the EQs will have an affect on this sound, too.

In fact, unless you are going for either 1) the specific compression of tape, or 2) a low fi effect (in which case, go with a 4-track cassette setup rather than reel to reel), you are probably better off trying to emulate that signal chain rather than going for tape.