Matrix Resurrections....

Edika

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it's funny that you say this, when the movie literally stated, verbatim, "Warner Brothers has decided to make a sequel to the trilogy. They are going to do it with or without us. They'll kill our contract if they don't cooperate." People are in here "gee whizz was that for real!?" Takes two seconds to Google it and see that, yes, it was... with the guy who wrote X-Men: The Last Stand and Ready Player One, so it would have been horrible.

Then they have a focus group say the first things people think of when they hear the Matrix is "originality" and "fresh." Then they have Neo, clearly a stand-in for the Wachowskis (one or both, doesn't matter) completely lose their shit and try and kill himself because they hate the idea of a sequel so much. They have a gross, sexist dude bro who completely missed the point of the first trilogy say it was all about bullet time - he's clearly a stand-in for the audience members who didn't notice the OG trilogy were really about philosophy and allegory and the gun fights and kung fu were just window dressing. They do everything to make fun of reboot culture, say they were done with the movies, and point out doing a sequel is stupid. They make it extremely clear they aren't going to do a straight reboot/sequel/whatever... and people still didn't get it. It certainly was "very on-the-nose," but clearly still not obvious enough.

The old Matrix trilogy thought people were smart. The new one knows people are stupid and was written with that in mind... and people still didn't get it. All you need to do is read this thread. It's honestly fucking hilarious (and very sad, but oh well). The movie calls its shot in the first 20 minutes or so, basically nails it, and people are absolutely furious about it but that says a lot more about them than the movie.

This movie is Last Action Hero mixed with Sense8 and the old Matrix movies, jammed into a blender. I can't believe they managed to make this movie. It's amazing. It's definitely not perfect. 8 out of 10 at the absolute best. But it's the most interesting big franchise movie I've seen in ... forever, honestly. All these horribly offended, super butthurt reactions are a nice dessert.



That machine was actually named for a plot device as old as Western civilization itself... deus ex machina is a reference to ancient Greek theater. Odds are pretty good that it references Neo and Trinity being saved from actual death by the machines but whatever

That is why the first part of the movie was interesting. Honestly if there was no Matrix and futuristic crap it would have been a more interesting movie. But the thing with the first three movies was that either the philosophy points they were trying to make were thrown at you heavy handedly or they were so disjointed and "covert" you could not make heads or tails of what the message was.

I saw a YouTube video that made an analysis of the movie as an allegory of the Wachowski brothers transition and that made a lot more sense of the movies other than whatever else most have said about them.
 

TedEH

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The more I think about it, I think a part of my disappointment with the new film was how it didn't resolve or address or expand on any of the questions that were left hanging from the trilogy. IMO there was a lot to explore in terms of why Neo might have had "powers" outside of the Matrix - even if they had taken the easy/inception route that it turns out there's two or more layers of Matrix and that they've never truly escaped in the first place. Maybe they could have done a "ransomware" plot - where programs from inside the Matrix, realizing that it's possible now to upload themselves to brains connected to the system, start holding peoples bodies in the real world for ransom or something.
 

WarMachine

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IMO there was a lot to explore in terms of why Neo might have had "powers" outside of the Matrix
This.
Writers; "Nah. Why would we do that? Let's ruin a series and make Trinity "the one " to keep the woke culture happy"
Coarse-Fickle-Giantschnauzer-size-restricted.gif
 

profwoot

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This.
Writers; "Nah. Why would we do that? Let's ruin a series and make Trinity "the one " to keep the woke culture happy"
Coarse-Fickle-Giantschnauzer-size-restricted.gif

wtf is this shit? Trinity wasn't made "the one". Do you troglodytes ever even listen to yourselves?
 

WarMachine

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wtf is this shit? Trinity wasn't made "the one". Do you troglodytes ever even listen to yourselves?
Im sorry great one, enlighten a "troglodyte" such as myself where i misunderstood where it looked like trinity was doing things Neo used to be able to do, but can't seem to in this one:nuts:
 

profwoot

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It was explained earlier in this thread. What does need explaining is why you think a woman having superpowers instead of a man could only be due to "woke culture". Do you really assume that no one could actually consider men and women as equals, so anyone that appears to do so must be virtue signaling to the "woke culture"? Which man in the story should have gained power instead?
 

WarMachine

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It was explained earlier in this thread. What does need explaining is why you think a woman having superpowers instead of a man could only be due to "woke culture". Do you really assume that no one could actually consider men and women as equals, so anyone that appears to do so must be virtue signaling to the "woke culture"? Which man in the story should have gained power instead?
It's not about a man or woman getting power, it's about changing the makeup of how the man or woman gets that power. If the series started out with trinity having that power then that would be fine. But to get it at the end when its about to hit the fan and not neo killed it for me. Seems to me like everything these days falls into the "woke culture" for fear of backlash online and in the media, "why does it have to be a man?". Um, because in this series it has been, so that's what people were expecting.
And don't get me wrong, it's not just that, that was the last nail in the coffin for this for me. The bigger problem i had with it is that, up to this point, the movies were based off of everyone knowing or eventually finding out that Neo is the one. Including himself. Not until he got the idea that he was able to do virtually anything. So for him to forget, by the programs that were made to make him forget, i'm fine with. Makes sense. If he doesn't remember he can do anything than he can do nothing. But once he started to get the moves back, you'd think it would've made more sense for him to be able to do everything he did before or even more, but they took a dump on that as well. Glad someone liked it.
 

profwoot

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It's not about a man or woman getting power, it's about changing the makeup of how the man or woman gets that power. If the series started out with trinity having that power then that would be fine. But to get it at the end when its about to hit the fan and not neo killed it for me. Seems to me like everything these days falls into the "woke culture" for fear of backlash online and in the media, "why does it have to be a man?". Um, because in this series it has been, so that's what people were expecting.
And don't get me wrong, it's not just that, that was the last nail in the coffin for this for me. The bigger problem i had with it is that, up to this point, the movies were based off of everyone knowing or eventually finding out that Neo is the one. Including himself. Not until he got the idea that he was able to do virtually anything. So for him to forget, by the programs that were made to make him forget, i'm fine with. Makes sense. If he doesn't remember he can do anything than he can do nothing. But once he started to get the moves back, you'd think it would've made more sense for him to be able to do everything he did before or even more, but they took a dump on that as well. Glad someone liked it.

The movie is a mess; I'm only trying to get you to think about why you attribute at least one aspect of that mess to "woke culture". Is it unfathomable to you that the trans woman who wrote and directed the film couldn't possibly care about diversity and inclusion? It simply must be due to fear of backlash from... other people who care about diversity and inclusion? Is she, and everyone else, just "virtue signaling" because it's not possible for anyone to actually give a shit about other humans? Your reasoning on this, as is always true among those who use terms like "woke culture", seems non-existent.

Personally, I dig the idea of there not actually being a "one", because every goddamn scifi/fantasy has a "one" and it's boring and unrelatable. I will again grant that this movie had lots of problems, but given wanting to demonstrate that other people besides neo can also gain power, trinity is absolutely the safest and most obvious answer, no awareness of other humans' struggles -- oh sorry, "wokeness" -- required.
 

TedEH

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I actually found the whole Trinity-has-powers-now to be quite the opposite of woke. If anything, it was an obvious and predictable conclusion to the very traditional "main characters save the world with their love" narrative, without really saying anything, or doing any exploration of that relationship. For bonus points, they're strait white powerful people. That's about as status-quo as it gets.
 

bostjan

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I think you are giving the movie too much credit either way. None of the movies were as clever as they general get credit for being, and arguably, the first one was the only one that even had anything actually profound to say, and even that was all borrowed from other movies and from books. This latest one was an obvious cash grab by the studio that is getting some critics to give it props for being self aware that it's a cash grab from the studio.
 

WarMachine

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Is it unfathomable to you that the trans woman who wrote and directed the film couldn't possibly care about diversity and inclusion? It simply must be due to fear of backlash from...

Your reasoning on this, as is always true among those who use terms like "woke culture", seems non-existent.

-- oh sorry, "wokeness" -- required.
Well Mr.Van Driessen, you've just proven my point. At what point did i say anything of sexual preference/gender identity/whatever had to do with the writer? IDGAF what manner of person writes any film/show as long as it's good. And you say "my reasoning seems non-existent"? I expected no less. My "reasoning" was made very plain and simple in the last post, as how, someone from your standpoint, "it is always true among those who like to defend "wokeness". Again, i could give a shit less if it was a woman, another man, an android, a wizard (i hope my oh so simple minded references don't offend you) whatever. I was just hoping Neo would get that power back. Damn i must be a chauvinist, misogynist relic.
 

Randy

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Woke-ism (if you wanna call it that) is a real thing in films.

I'll preface that by saying I'm one of those people that hates reboots and sequels several decades after the fact. In my brain, I like a good movie (or trilogy) to be a finite story from beginning to end in a box and once it's finished, it's finished.

Rebooting feels cheap because, other than the fact it almost never (?) is on par with the original, it also takes something that was understood in that universe for some period of time and then flips it upside down just to have an excuse to exist. Same concept applies to sequels; something like Highlander 1 vs Highlander 2 comes to mind (zeist!).

So yeah, I'm predisposed to NOT liking reboots or late sequels and like, 10x worse if it's a BAD movie that pokes holes in the GOOD movies that precede it.

I won't sharpen "woke-ism" to specifically be about gender or sexual orientation or whatever, but I choose to define it as corralling art to reflect the politics/culture of the day. Whatever that may be. Sometimes a profound statement that reflects current affair stands on its own (The Crying Game, Guess Who's Coming to Dinner), sometimes it's sloppily attached to another piece of art as a crutch. Maybe it's my own definition but "woke-ism" to me is the idea that making a singular statement about that time in history is more important than creating art that's timeless (which is capable of being both).

Woke reboot/reimagining feels like taking good movies, good stories and making half hearted fanfic to "right the wrong" of the original material for not being made in the same climate as the follow-up. How dare this movie from 20 years ago not reflect the principals of today! You can make a statement about something or make a new statement without having to drag your source material to do it.
 
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WarMachine

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Woke reboot/reimagining feels like taking good movies, good stories and making half hearted fanfic to "right the wrong" of the original material for not being made in the same climate as the follow-up. How dare this movie from 20 years ago not reflect the principals of today! You can make a statement about something or make a new statement without having to drag your source material to do it.
Exactly this ^. If what i was saying before came off wrong in my first post, then sorry for stepping on toes. But @Randy hit the nail on the head in the above statement.
 

narad

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Woke-ism (if you wanna call it that) is a real thing in films.

I'll preface that by saying I'm one of those people that hates reboots and sequels several decades after the fact. In my brain, I like a good movie (or trilogy) to be a finite story from beginning to end in a box and once it's finished, it's finished.

Rebooting feels cheap because, other than the fact it almost never (?) is on par with the original, it also takes something that was understood in that universe for some period of time and then flips it upside down just to have an excuse to exist. Same concept applies to sequels; something like Highlander 1 vs Highlander 2 comes to mind (zeist!).

So yeah, I'm predisposed to NOT liking reboots or late sequels and like, 10x worse if it's a BAD movie that pokes holes in the GOOD movies that precede it.

I won't sharpen "woke-ism" to specifically be about gender or sexual orientation or whatever, but I choose to define it as corralling art to reflect the politics/culture of the day. Whatever that may be. Sometimes a profound statement that reflects current affair stands on its own (The Crying Game, Guess Who's Coming to Dinner), sometimes it's sloppily attached to another piece of art as a crutch. Maybe it's my own definition but "woke-ism" to me is the idea that making a singular statement about that time in history is more important than creating art that's timeless (which is capable of being both).

Woke reboot/reimagining feels like taking good movies, good stories and making half hearted fanfic to "right the wrong" of the original material for not being made in the same climate as the follow-up. How dare this movie from 20 years ago not reflect the principals of today! You can make a statement about something or make a new statement without having to drag your source material to do it.

This is probably not so much what you mean but I found myself annoyed at the Wheel of Time, which has been receiving praise lately for its representation choices vs. Game of Thrones. But when the Aes Sedai (witch coven basically) is like one white girl, one black girl, one indian girl, one asian girl, to me it doesn't seem like good representation but something that seems like such a statistical anomaly that it reminds me more of a university brochure than a realistic situation. Then the fourth wall is kind of broken because I find myself wondering about the general racial demographics of the Wheel of Time world. I feel like better representation in TV is overdue, but it can't be like building a noah's ark of one actor of each race in each prominent role.
 

TedEH

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seems like such a statistical anomaly that it reminds me more of a university brochure than a realistic situation
And that's just it - it's not subtle. You can very plainly see when "representation" is being used as a signal, or just to check a box. I can appreciate that there's some that feel like the political message is something that needs to be upfront and blunt, for a number of reasons, and I won't deny them that take, but I think it's naive to think that nothing is potentially lost in that process.
 

profwoot

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Yeah I just plowed through Witcher Season 2 (which held my attention, despite the convoluted plot) and it's pretty bad in this regard. I still don't really understand who everyone is, despite having played W3 a few times. Poland is all white so I get wanting to diversify it, but everyone being a different color is pretty uncanny in a medieval setting.
 

KnightBrolaire

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Yeah I just plowed through Witcher Season 2 (which held my attention, despite the convoluted plot) and it's pretty bad in this regard. I still don't really understand who everyone is, despite having played W3 a few times. Poland is all white so I get wanting to diversify it, but everyone being a different color is pretty uncanny in a medieval setting.
It's a fantasy world, they don't have to make everyone white just because it's based off a polish book/game. I didn't find it as blatant as other examples tbh.
I have no problem with representation when it's done well, but most of these companies shit the bed in that regard.

The BBC is super guilty of the whole woke tokenism shit, though they're doing it in a far worse way. I remember one show aimed at teaching kids about ancient Rome and how they affected Britain, where the majority of characters were black, which is just false. There were North African auxiliary legions/soldiers, but they weren't really in Britain from what the records show.
Netflix has been super blatant about it as well, but they're not just checking the skin color box, they want gender/sexuality spectrum too. Damn near every show they make anymore has ALL the gender/sexuality representation, regardless of whether it's organic in the context of the show. They chucked nonbinary and trans kids into Sex Education and Big Mouth, and it was so obviously forced.


Hopefully in the next couple of years all this shit will actually be integrated into the writing or world building, so it'll be less obvious.
 
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Edika

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In general even the One persona in the first trilogy felt annoying as hell. Especially if we're talking about a simulated world that theoretically could be hacked and the laws of nature rewritten, as they were doing. So was Neo the only one with latent superhacker abilities that were a quirk of his code instead, you know code cracking experience? In that regard anyone would be able to manipulate the virtual world of Matrix and the fact that Trinity could also is not a strange concept. In the end Neo has his all glory back but Trinity is on equal footing. This time though is not the power of a quirk in the code but the power of love that transcends everything, the love to kick ass and chew bubble gum!

In term of inclusiveness in movies, I'm for it in modern and futuristic movies. However having medieval themed movies or Victorian movies with Asian and Black people as part of the everyday society and even the higher society is ignorant and is causing more bad than good. Because non binary people and other races were sooooooo well received in history...
 

TedEH

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It's a fantasy world, they don't have to make everyone white just because it's based off a polish book/game.
As long as they have that generic British-y "fantasy" accent, amirite?

Although given their handling of Chappelle, I'd say they're kinda all over the place when it comes to any sort of "political sides" they might take. I don't think they, as a company, really have any take, other than whatever keeps the lights on for them.
 


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