It's official, a """Pantera reunion""" is happening.

Spaced Out Ace

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To be clear, nobody here has opined that using Norse runes/imagery is tantamount to that somebody being racist. I, for one, regard the use of Viking runes as harmless if you literally belong to the pagan religions or of some national identity or lineage. Or you like the TV Show, or you do cosplay.

However, if it is used alongside other symbols of hate or you use the identified Nazi/Neo Nazi Norse symbols, that is a huge red flag. Like my co-worker who wears Thor's hammer necklace and has a life rune (Algis) tattooed on his index finger, I would've thought it was harmless. But then I saw his truck with a thin blue line flag and a literal SS Helmet sticker, I wouldn't want to be friends with that guy.
This isn't really related, exactly, but I found it rather comical when Paul Stanley talked shit about Ace Frehley because he'd get drunk/high as shit, then fuck with Gene claiming to be a Nazi SS Officer in the middle of fucking a groupie. (No, seriously. He'd really do that. If you've read Ace's book, you'd think it was super boring, but that's because he couldn't prove Gene, Paul, Peter, Wendy Moore, Gordon G. G. Gebert, and Bobby McAdams right. Ace used to pull some rather "interesting" shit, but I digress.)

Anyways, back on topic: Why do I find this funny, exactly? Do I think it is funny to make such rude gestures as a "joke" to a guy who grew up with the idea that his mom was in the SS camps?

Nope. I find it funny that Paul tried to "out" Ace as some secret nazi, when low and behold, Paul Stanley (who is half German) and Peter Criss (Italian) are also seen in SS regalia. I'm not sure if that exactly counts as Streisand Effect, but good going, Paul.

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Albake21

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The people pretending that the conversation is "Vikings = racism" know that's not said in here. It's just a way to skip over the details in favor of trying to make the conversation seem silly and blown out of proportion. Either that or poor reading comprehension. Possibly both.
I'll take it this is directed at me. God damn man, with that attitude of gate keeping you sound just as much as ignorant as the opposing side. There are plenty of quotes in this thread talking about how Viking Imagery (literally yourself included) are associated with white supremacy. Simple as that. No need to read in between the lines, especially on a forum where you know nothing about each other than maybe silly guitar tastes.

It's a new discovery to me, I said it sounds stupid as in, it's stupid it even exists at all. As in these idiots are racist losers who feel the need to claim something as silly as Viking imagery just to get their point across.
 
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I'll take it this is directed at me. God damn man, with that attitude of gate keeping you sound just as much as ignorant as the opposing side. There are plenty of quotes in this thread talking about how Viking Imagery (literally yourself included) are associated with white supremacy. Simple as that. No need to read in between the lines, especially on a forum where you know nothing about each other than maybe silly guitar tastes.

It's a new discovery to me, I said it sounds stupid as in, it's stupid it even exists at all. As in these idiots are racist losers who feel the need to claim something as silly as Viking imagery just to get their point across.
I wasn't speaking about anyone in particular. I don't even know who you are..but if the shoe fits, feel free to wear them while continuing your offended performance.
 

Dooky

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Which sucks because viking/celtic/northern european imagery is sick as fuck, but definitely does feel a different way now that it's become so heavily associated with the neo nazi movement.

Nazi's have to ruin everything don't they?
Or, you could just not give a fuck about what the far lefties think and do what you want.
 

CanserDYI

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Or, you could just not give a fuck about what the far lefties think and do what you want.
But...I'm the far lefty....


"Yeah fuck those guys, this stuff that symbolizes atrocities committed by peoples in power looks really sick man, I'm gonna wear it and knowingly represent those things because I'm fuckin COOL MAN. These guys cant handle my coolness."
 

nightflameauto

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This thread has been a perfect illustration of how people talk past each other and escalate a conversation despite there being no intention of escalation by anyone involved.

Meanwhile, I'm over here with my D&D Dice, trying to determine if its the D8 or D20 that was supposed to be the racist callsign.
 

mmr007

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But...I'm the far lefty....


"Yeah fuck those guys, this stuff that symbolizes atrocities committed by peoples in power looks really sick man, I'm gonna wear it and knowingly represent those things because I'm fuckin COOL MAN. These guys cant handle my coolness."
As a far lefty myself I agree with what you are saying but let me counter with this which has been kinda my point all along..

Why do so many metal bands use ANY controversial imagery? Why do they use pentagrams which represent satanism? Devil worship, imagery, band names and song names and album covers of death, mutilation, rape, necrophilia, militaria, genocide, and you may think I'm just referring to Slayer but I'm not....that's most bands out there. All of that is offensive and technically shouldn't be used. But I'm not the PMRC and I don't intend to be.

Again symbols mean different things to different people. There are some hand gestures you cannot do in say...Japan or Italy that are commonplace in the US. I agree the sight of the confederate flag gives me pause and I would never associate with someone who displays the nazi swastika....but we cannot all have the same sensitivity to something and you can't hate someone (or shouldn't anyway) because they fail to possess your same sensitivity. Otherwise we could nitpick EVERYTHING all day long. For example...

I don't fish. It's just a leisurely sport. You know why I don't? Because the the thought of capturing an animal on a hook and dragging it to its death by a hook through its mouth is absolutely barbaric to me. I view it the same as dog fighting. I understand that if you need to eat and a net is not an option but the thought of sport fishing is horrible to me. But I will never apply my values to any of you who enjoy fishing because I believe you can all be very good people despite doing something I don't like.

Let me propose another stupid example of mine....Freddy Krueger. A fictional psychopath. A fucking child molester who was burned to death by parents of his victims rises from the dead to murder more kids and say profane things while doing it and yet we have this......

1660313823928.png
My point? The simple fact is people don't always put the thought into things that you think they do. Dime may be a racist and so may Zakk. But until they do something actually racist like republicans trying to limit the ability of blacks to vote or something like that I will try not judge them too harshly because we are all imperfect and trying to find our way and our voice in this world and I cannot be too harsh on two guitarists who became famous during a time in history when Andrew fucking "Dice" Clay was a thing.
 

CanserDYI

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As a far lefty myself I agree with what you are saying but let me counter with this which has been kinda my point all along..

Why do so many metal bands use ANY controversial imagery? Why do they use pentagrams which represent satanism? Devil worship, imagery, band names and song names and album covers of death, mutilation, rape, necrophilia, militaria, genocide, and you may think I'm just referring to Slayer but I'm not....that's most bands out there. All of that is offensive and technically shouldn't be used. But I'm not the PMRC and I don't intend to be.

Again symbols mean different things to different people. There are some hand gestures you cannot do in say...Japan or Italy that are commonplace in the US. I agree the sight of the confederate flag gives me pause and I would never associate with someone who displays the nazi swastika....but we cannot all have the same sensitivity to something and you can't hate someone (or shouldn't anyway) because they fail to possess your same sensitivity. Otherwise we could nitpick EVERYTHING all day long. For example...

I don't fish. It's just a leisurely sport. You know why I don't? Because the the thought of capturing an animal on a hook and dragging it to its death by a hook through its mouth is absolutely barbaric to me. I view it the same as dog fighting. I understand that if you need to eat and a net is not an option but the thought of sport fishing is horrible to me. But I will never apply my values to any of you who enjoy fishing because I believe you can all be very good people despite doing something I don't like.

Let me propose another stupid example of mine....Freddy Krueger. A fictional psychopath. A fucking child molester who was burned to death by parents of his victims rises from the dead to murder more kids and say profane things while doing it and yet we have this......

View attachment 112398
My point? The simple fact is people don't always put the thought into things that you think they do. Dime may be a racist and so may Zakk. But until they do something actually racist like republicans trying to limit the ability of blacks to vote or something like that I will try not judge them too harshly because we are all imperfect and trying to find our way and our voice in this world and I cannot be too harsh on two guitarists who became famous during a time in history when Andrew fucking "Dice" Clay was a thing.
I'm not disagreeing with you, but something about generic "death, murder, rape, gore" doesnt discriminate to me. It can and will happen to anyone, where as logos and symbols that were literally used to scare and terrorize entire groups of people into submission or actual not fictional or fantastical situations, it really sits differently to me.

And that's not being a snowflake, realizing how fucking offensive like 90% of our white culture and heritage is. (not pointed at @mmr007 this is just something I want to point out in general)
 

mmr007

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I agree that the "generic" atrocities don't stand out because there isnt a twisted ideology behind it that we can identify. It's just art imitating life and I get that whereas some of the symbols we already mentioned are just life and not art and they are a stand in for pending bad things or evil deeds. But again, that means we should ban the pentagram or "cancel" those who use it because many people, including christians find it very offensive. And why wouldn't they...it is the very definition of evil (BTW I'm an atheist so I don't give a shit) but that again reinforces my other point is that it is a symbol that....because of my upbringing and my lifestyle that has never had the same impact on me that it had on others...like the victims of satanist Richard Ramirez.

I will not spend one cubic ounce of breath defending racism. But I will only say that a snapshot of someone will not ever be enough to make me form a complete opinion on them. A controversial image on a guitar....I am ok with that

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xzacx

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Why do so many metal bands use ANY controversial imagery? Why do they use pentagrams which represent satanism? Devil worship, imagery, band names and song names and album covers of death, mutilation, rape, necrophilia, militaria, genocide, and you may think I'm just referring to Slayer but I'm not....that's most bands out there. All of that is offensive and technically shouldn't be used. But I'm not the PMRC and I don't intend to be.

It's not exactly apples to apples though—it's almost the opposite. The use of satanic/anti-religious imagery does have shock value, but there's purposeful socio-political meaning behind it. A lot of bands use it as symbolism against what they feel is the oppressive and discriminatory nature of religion and the atrocities it has and still commits. So in those cases it's not like "we're just using it to scare people" but more like "no, we're really against religion because we think it's ultimately a negative force."
 

mmr007

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The use of satanic/anti-religious imagery does have shock value, but there's purposeful socio-political meaning behind it.
According to you. I'm not saying you are wrong. I am not saying I disagree with you. I am saying according to you. Others may see it differently and again, I don't judge others for having a different POV or be less further along on their sophistication in tolerance.

Let us all remember in 2008 Obama said he DID NOT support gay marriage. In 2008! He had to evolve on the issue. I disagreed strongly with him at the time. I've been a supporter of gay marriage since the late 80's before it was on any national topic of conversation radar. But I still supported him and for whatever reason he "evolved" on the issue.

None of us are perfect or have been right every time.....but I will reserve final judgement (not that it's mine to give) after I have a greater body of work to view. Dime was murdered. I don't know what his use of the flag on guitars or N word would be now. If he went full Ted Nugent....yeah fuck him. If not...who knows.
 

ArtDecade

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I don't know what his use of the flag on guitars or N word would be now. If he went full Ted Nugent....yeah fuck him. If not...who knows.
I get what you are saying, but I'm more than willing to pass judgement. If you associate yourself with the Confederate flag because you think it makes you a rebel rather than a racist, well, you are still wrong. Is it possible that he was too dumb to understand the difference? Possibly, but that is why these discussions pop up - to educate the ignorant.
 

mmr007

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I get what you are saying, but I'm more than willing to pass judgement. If you associate yourself with the Confederate flag because you think it makes you a rebel rather than a racist, well, you are still wrong. Is it possible that he was too dumb to understand the difference? Possibly, but that is why these discussions pop up - to educate the ignorant.
I agree with 99% of what you said. I would say 100% but I have commitment issues and I need to leave myself some wiggle room for future contrarian arguments and discussions.
 

tedtan

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Sorry but this is super off.
What part of what I said is “super off”?


It goes back way further and was even used by the actual Nazis in the '20s-'40s. The SS logo is literally runes. Unlike something like a swastika or rebel flag, I do think they're also used by a lot of people in innocent ways, but the history of the connotation is deep.
I’m not suggesting that white supremacists haven’t used Nordic symbology in the past, only that in recent times, they only seem to have been using them for the past few years, whereas rock and metal bands have been using them consistently for decades. So in the context of rock and metal bands, which is what we’re talking about in a Panera reunion thread, the use of Norse symbols wouldn’t be a red flag for me unless there were other signs of racism in combination with the Norse symbols.
 

Thaeon

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Yeah. From my perspective, it’s experience of those things we’re talking about. For instance, I’m a direct descendent of Langobards, Celts, and Picts. Viking imagery and Celtic imagery are part of my heritage. But I avoid Viking imagery because it has been so closely tied to Nazi stuff. I’ve known people that have used that imagery here in the US that were not racist. Most often it’s a means to feel connected with where your family comes from. I’ve seen Celtic imagery attempted to be used by white supremacists. The vast majority of the people I’ve known using a rebel flag have said something racist or had racist ideologies that they would openly espouse when they thought it was safe. That’s why I can’t support the rebel flag and I question the motives of someone flying one. Viking imagery or Celtic or whatever, I’d hold back judgement until I saw other evidence. Imagery like Iron Crosses and Swastikas that were used by Nazis I see as Nazi iconography. I’m not just categorically making judgements about Pantera. Rebel flags (a sign to be wary at the very least), coupled with Phil’s behavior and Dime either not saying anything or laughing builds a pretty solid case. For at least one of them having racist tendencies and the other either being complicit in those things or being too weak to say something. The latter running contrary to Dime’s public persona. I rebel flag is and indicator of racism at worst and red flag warning of the possibility at best. Jury is out on Zakk. But based on the culture he’s picked for his fans, it doesn’t bode well. James Hetfield using an Iron Cross and some of the shit he’s said are very questionable. The cross on the guitar is most likely a nod to Lemmy. Lemmy’s use of that symbology is problematic. But that’s not the first thing we could find about his life that would be seen as problematic. Jury is still out for me about most of these people. But not Dime and Phil. There’s enough evidence in my estimation that there was/is some racism going on.
 

tedtan

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I get what you are saying, but I'm more than willing to pass judgement. If you associate yourself with the Confederate flag because you think it makes you a rebel rather than a racist, well, you are still wrong. Is it possible that he was too dumb to understand the difference? Possibly, but that is why these discussions pop up - to educate the ignorant.
They funniest thing about Zakk using the Confederate flag is that he’s from New Jersey.
 


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