Israel-Palestine escalation live: Gaza under bombardment after Hamas attack

[soliloquy]

Nearly the entire US House of Representatives just equated anti-Zionist to anti-semitism : Peoples Dispatch

Out of 412 representatives, only two did not vote in favor of a resolution which reaffirmed Israel’s right to exist

peoplesdispatch.org

 

[MaxOfMetal]

We don't even have to work that hard and make up a comparison.

This is literally what happened with 9/11.

This article is more succinct than I could ever be:

Yes, This Is Israel’s 9/11

Both the U.S. and Israel were stunned to experience the ultraviolence they mete out to others.

theintercept.com

And it's likely going to bring horrors that will shape the next several generations, much like the "War on Terror."

Something of a followup:

Israel Knew Hamas’s Attack Plan More Than a Year Ago (Published 2023)

A blueprint reviewed by The Times laid out the attack in detail. Israeli officials dismissed it as aspirational and ignored specific warnings.

www.nytimes.com

Also:

The women soldiers who warned of a pending Hamas attack – and were ignored

***

www.haaretz.com

 

[Louis Cypher]

Pretty powerful comment piece in the guardian about atrocities by Hamas against women on the 7th Oct
I am only posting this as I agree with the points made that this is being either ignored, denied or questioned by a lot of western media and politicians and this needs to be brought in to the light in the same way any and all war crimes by IDF or Hamas are detailed, investigated and hopefully prosecuted.
This article details some extremely vile acts (not in graphic detail obviously) so please take that in to account before reading

Whatever your view of the Israel-Hamas war, rape is rape. To trivialise it is to diminish ourselves

Mods: this post is meant with the greatest amount of respect to the subject, but feel free to remove it if its unsuitable

 

[Drew]

Sure, but I think there's not much of an argument to wrap up around that observation, because, as I said, in the period between ~Oct 14 / now, my sympathy for Palestinians has grown. My support of a ceasefire has grown. I, like almost all humans, have sympathy for thousands of children dying. Do you want to classify me as someone who supports Palestine?

Again, though, since to your point the specific wording of the poll matters, go back and actually read what was being asked. Do you have MORE sympathy for Palestine than Israel? If not, then no, you'd fall in the Israel bucket here.

This was literally the most up-to-date poll I found, I didn't intentionally seek out one that was more flattering than normal to Palestine, but even if you look at the NY Times polling round up there, you still get the same message as the one I'd posted - Americans still favor Israel over Palestine in aggregte, but the margin is shrinking and there's been an increase in support (if from a low base) from Palestine. There's also growing discomfort with Israel's actions even amongst their supporters, and there are material differences between how liberal and conservative voters, and young and old voters, see the conflict.

So, again, I don't think indefinite US popular support for Israel can be taken for granted; clearly, public opinion CAN be shifted, since it's already happened a little.

 

[Drew]

I think the US is already doing that dance behind the scenes and partially in front of the cameras.

The US one of the most vocal proponents of opening the corridor for aide and refugees, and the ceasefire. Israel and the hard right pro-Israeli supporters were saying for weeks a ceasefire was just 1.) going to be violated by Hamas 2.) give Hamas time to dig in and re-stock arms. At a minimum, the ceasefire happened in opposition to the loudest supporters of Israel (who are by and large, the power structure).

Also worth noting Blinken visiting with Abas (twice that I can recall). There's also his comments from a few weeks ago regarding their perspective on Israel and goals for Palestine:


I mean, that's about as explicit of an endorsement of the mainstream Palestinian goals as you're going to get from anybody, really. And he was saying these things a month ago when feelings were still very raw.

Yeah, I agree - we were also instrumental in getting the communications networks back online in Gaza after Israel initially shut them off when they launched theirt assault. And go back far enough and you'll see me arguing I think Blinken had already privately shifted towards the Palestinian side within the first week or two of the war.

I haven't even opened that debate with Narad since I'm still on his assumptions... but if you look at the actual policy moves of the US here, then yeah, absolutely - we still support Israel on the balance, but we've been focusing on a FAR more nuanced position than Israel's lobbyists would want. I don't think aid to Israel will actually make it out of Congress with some of the humanitarian and protection of Gazan citizens restrictions on it that have been discussed, buy the fact that this is even a conversation pretty clearly says that there's some serious discomfort here with Israel's invasion.

 

[Randy]

Pretty powerful comment piece in the guardian about atrocities by Hamas against women on the 7th Oct
I am only posting this as I agree with the points made that this is being either ignored, denied or questioned by a lot of western media and politicians and this needs to be brought in to the light in the same way any and all war crimes by IDF or Hamas are detailed, investigated and hopefully prosecuted.
This article details some extremely vile acts (not in graphic detail obviously) so please take that in to account before reading

Whatever your view of the Israel-Hamas war, rape is rape. To trivialise it is to diminish ourselves

Mods: this post is meant with the greatest amount of respect to the subject, but feel free to remove it if its unsuitable

I mean, she's right on principal but she frames this in a way I don't necessarily agree with.

Talks about what aboutism and pics or it didn't happen regarding rape, like it was unique to that one atrocity but that same discussion was being had about executing civilians including women and children. I think everyone is clear that rapes happened. I think everyone's clear terrorists went door to door and executed families of people hiding from them.

I don't get on with this notion that anybody is or was implying any crime was too heinous for Hamas commit.

This is part of why I said early on in this thread I would have liked to see this invasion handled like a criminal matter. If I was a victim or family of victim, yes some part of me would feel bloodlust but likely a larger part of me would want those responsible held accountable. Those specific people that committed that specific act. Dropping a bomb on maybe them and 40 other people and allowing them to remain nameless or faceless does not feel like justice to me.

As far as overall, I agree with her that the argument quickly descended into my side versus your side and people were speaking rather blase about war crimes. But the fact she chose exclusively to discuss the October 7th atrocities and act like those were the only ones met with callousness doesn't sit right with me.

 

[ADADAD]

This is part of why I said early on in this thread I would have liked to see this invasion handled like a criminal matter.

Please explain how you'd go about that without using the phrase "send in special forces like we did with Bin Laden".

 

[Randy]

Please explain how you'd go about that without using the phrase "send in special forces like we did with Bin Laden".

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/shin-bet-idf-nab-20-hamas-terrorists-deep-inside-gaza-bring-them-for-questioning/

 

[ADADAD]

Like this, genius.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/shin-bet-idf-nab-20-hamas-terrorists-deep-inside-gaza-bring-them-for-questioning/

Edit: oh wait, the article mentions special forces. Never mind LOL you win

This happened during the war. You think this would have been as possible otherwise?

 

[narad]

Again, though, since to your point the specific wording of the poll matters, go back and actually read what was being asked. Do you have MORE sympathy for Palestine than Israel? If not, then no, you'd fall in the Israel bucket here.

Yea, I have read the articles. I just think there's an important distinction between sympathy and support, especially in polling about sentiment. I don't really want to say I have more sympathy for Palestine than Israel, but I don't have less. This is an ongoing thing though -- the most recent poll also uses sympathy, but the numbers there tell a different story (and I think it's not inaccurate there to refer to it as "abysmal").

This was literally the most up-to-date poll I found, I didn't intentionally seek out one that was more flattering than normal to Palestine,

I'm not accusing you of choosing a bad poll, just updating with more polls as they come in.

but even if you look at the NY Times polling round up there, you still get the same message as the one I'd posted - Americans still favor Israel over Palestine in aggregte, but the margin is shrinking and there's been an increase in support (if from a low base) from Palestine.

Sure, but if we compare the number with the previous poll I mentioned, I have trouble finding 9%->11% support for Palestine to be indicative of being near a tipping point or really indicative of any substantial permanent change in American sentiment. Personally I'm not sure if 9%-70% would amount to any policy change large enough to pressure Israel into a significantly different stance and better lives for the people in Gaza, which was originally the topic -- what are feasible solutions that result in significant improvements in life in Gaza, such that it is preferable to living elsewhere. Anyway, I can't tell you your forecast is wrong, but it's certainly optimistic.

 

[Randy]

This happened during the war. You think this would have been as possible otherwise?

Not entirely sure what your point is? Of course an incursion into Gaza to arrest war criminals/terrorists would require military support. That doesn't mean it required full scale war in all four corners of Gaza to execute it.

 

[ADADAD]

Not entirely sure what your point is? Of course an incursion into Gaza to arrest war criminals/terrorists would require military support. That doesn't mean it required full scale war in all four corners of Gaza to execute it.

My point is that it does require full scale war. Sending in forces without air strikes and artillery is suicide.

 

[Randy]

My point is that it does require full scale war. Sending in forces without air strikes and artillery is suicide.

And the artillery strikes could be confined to supporting the units on the ground. Not tens of miles away against assets of limited value.

 

[ADADAD]

And the artillery strikes could be confined to supporting the units on the ground. Not tens of miles away against assets of limited value.

Didn't realize your intel is better than the IDF's, my bad.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

Didn't realize your intel is better than the IDF's, my bad.

From what we've been hearing about the IDF's handling of Intel, maybe Randy's is better.

 

[StevenC]

He neutralized the Jerusalem terrorist and then was killed: Yuval raised his hands and shouted until he couldn't anymore - 'Look at my ID card to see I am Jewish'

One of the soldiers who accidentally shot to death lawyer Yuval Castleman will be investigated the police. In the meantime, it turns out that Castleman not only raised his hands and threw his gun away - but also asked for his ID to be checked, and shouted until he was hit by a bullet in his mouth

www.ynetnews.com

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/netanyahu-speaks-to-father-of-yuval-castleman-about-whose-killing-he-said-thats-life/

In case there was still any doubt.

 

[StevenC]

So, Israel clearly has the ability to do targeted strikes. Do they just prefer the other options?

 

[soliloquy]

So, Israel clearly has the ability to do targeted strikes. Do they just prefer the other options?

Naturally. They need to show their military superiority over someone, and women, children and innocent citizens are an easier target. Gives their bullets/bombs/weapons purpose of existing, and continues giving them status of being one of the most advanced military.

I mean, a 'victor' needs a 'loser' so the victor can have that bragging right. Isn't that how history is written? Its only for the victors to write as they see fit.


Additionally, Israel asked Gazans to move south to be safe, only to attack the south. BN is now also talking about unlocking the waters, so 'Gazans can "swim" to safety to Europe and other places'. Last I checked, concrete doesn't float

 

[Drew]

Didn't realize your intel is better than the IDF's, my bad.

I can't speak for his intel, but I'd say his intentions and respect for Palestinian civilan life certainly appear a bit better.

In other news, Israel is now moving into Southern Gaza, where they told northern residents to flee for safety, as of about 24 hours ago. At last estimation the death toll was already over 15,000, roughly half women and children. We've been cautioning Israel privately that they may win the tactical battle but lose the strategic war, for their increasingly callow attitude towards civilian life. I agree.

 

[soliloquy]

I can't speak for his intel, but I'd say his intentions and respect for Palestinian civilan life certainly appear a bit better.

In other news, Israel is now moving into Southern Gaza, where they told northern residents to flee for safety, as of about 24 hours ago. At last estimation the death toll was already over 15,000, roughly half women and children. Nothing good will come of this.

And IDF is 'now' claiming to only attack with surgical precision. This option was always available to them, they just wanted blood.