Israel-Palestine escalation live: Gaza under bombardment after Hamas attack

[soliloquy]

it has been an open air prison for 16 years now.

actually, i take that back.

Palestinians have done nothing wrong.
they cant leave out of their free will.
If they do leave, they cant come back as easily as, say, me returning back to my city/country.
their water has been restricted for years now
their food has been restricted for years now
its a no fly zone
they dont have access to the shore they are touching as that too, Israel blockades
surveillance on them constantly
cameras and automatic guns pointed at them constantly....

To call Palestine an open air prison, i think is doing them a disservice.
To call Palestine an open air prison is implying they have done something wrong, and thus needing to be in prison with their freedom restricted.

this is not a prison, this is a hostage take over, one that has been ongoing for a long while. Not just over the last 16 years.

 

[narad]

actually, i take that back.

Palestinians have done nothing wrong.
they cant leave out of their free will.
If they do leave, they cant come back as easily as, say, me returning back to my city/country.
their water has been restricted for years now
their food has been restricted for years now
its a no fly zone
they dont have access to the shore they are touching as that too, Israel blockades
surveillance on them constantly
cameras and automatic guns pointed at them constantly....

To call Palestine an open air prison, i think is doing them a disservice.
To call Palestine an open air prison is implying they have done something wrong, and thus needing to be in prison with their freedom restricted.

this is not a prison, this is a hostage take over, one that has been ongoing for a long while. Not just over the last 16 years.

You may be overlooking the biggest flaw in these analogies, which is that prisoners want to leave.

 

[soliloquy]

You may be overlooking the biggest flaw in these analogies, which is that prisoners want to leave.

Hostages want to live.
Preferably in the land that is theirs.

What's your point?

 

[narad]

Hostages want to live.
Preferably in the land that is theirs.

What's your point?

That Gaza is its own place and situation, which is neither a prison, nor a hostage situation, and comparisons to such are merely an attempt to oversimplify a complex situation into some buzzworthy tagline.

It's not appropriate to call Gaza an open-air prison because the Palestinians did nothing wrong? Yea, no shit, that and ten thousand other things that are different. Most notably, a desire to leave the prison.

 

[crushingpetal]

You may be overlooking the biggest flaw in these analogies, which is that prisoners want to leave.

Nope. A prison takes away the option to leave. It's not a prison because people don't want to be there. That's the dmv.

 

[narad]

Nope. A prison takes away the option to leave. It's not a prison because people don't want to be there. That's the dmv.

Ha, that's a fair point. But in the Palestinian case, it is not as much their inability to leave, but a combination of their desire to not leave combined with not having any safe place to go or other nation to welcome them. These are not particularly imposed constraints by Israel, but implied constraints by lack of help from neighboring countries and regions.

 

[narad]

As it happens, Israel was attacking a second hospital yesterday afternoon, and while they deny shelling it, they had tanks advancing on the hospital and some sort of a shell hit the building.

Deadly Strike Rocks a Hospital in Gaza, Where Few Are Still Working (Published 2023)

The strike killed 12 people, officials said, at the Indonesian Hospital in the Gaza Strip, where the U.N. says most hospitals no longer function and those that do cannot provide complex care.

www.nytimes.com

Israel says they came under fire from the building, and targeted the source of the fire, but also denies they shelled the building, which means...?


EDIT - also, I mean... to give this a somewhat more thorough response, I don't want to make light of an extremely complicated situation, but if "Hamas are using hospitals as human shields" is really the Israeli defense force's firm belief, that's still not really a cart blanche hall pass to shell hospitals. We had a long conversation about this several weeks ago and I know this wasn't universally agreed upon, but like it or not war IS something that we've codified somewhat, and over time have agreed upon certain rules of conduct, specifically related to the rights of non-combatants and concepts like "proportionality." And, there ARE scenarios where a hospital could become a valid military target, and striking it could be fairly expected to pass international muster, but that would require fairly compelling intelligence - if the hospital really was being used as a major base of operations, if there were a large number of enemy combatants present, and those combatants were actively engaging in or preparing to launch an attack, then yeah, you could probably justify treating a hospital as a valid military target and accepting some, hopefully limited, civilian casualties if the primary objective was demonstratedly military.

But, I read a pretty good Bloomberg opinion piece the other day that - likely intentionally - made no claims one way or another about the validity of Israel's claims, but described the process by which that sort of a target would need to approved in the US, and how it would originate basically on the ground, but be escalated all the way up through the chain of command likely all the way to the Commander in Chief before it could be signed off on, if there was any real danger of either killing civilians, or creating a situation where the optics would be that civilian lives could be at risk. And that it's not a perfect flawless process and the US's record clearly has a few blemishes on it... but it's always a carefully documented process, it's always rigorous, and if the wrong conclusion is ever drawn from military intelligence, then there's a very clear record of what went wrong and why. And that, presumably, Israel must be going through the same process, if they have ANY intention of abiding by international law, and at some point how the determination was made to apparently seize one hospital after a firefight and shell another will probably be a decision that gets some public scrutiny. If the process was well reasoned and there's valid intelligence to support the strikes, or even if the intelligence ultimately ends up being faulty but a good-faith interpretation was made that later proved incorrect, then that will probably come out and while it won't make the actions any more pleasant, it'll at least provide a reasonable basis for Israel's actions. And, while these attacks might still be unfortunate, they're not war crimes.

But, if it turns out Israel is shooting first and thinking second, that's a VERY big problem.

To add to this, Israel called for the evacuation of these areas with the hospitals (as far as I'm aware, though this will shift as they move around). Humanitarian groups will say it's impossible to simply evacuate these areas, especially when it comes to patients in the hospital, and yet further "left" leaning groups will say any call for mass evacuation is itself a war crime. I can't deny the partial futility in asking a resource poor nation to move hospital patients through a battle zone, but the alternative is also that there would be an area that is completely non-targetable from which Hamas could operate with pretty much no fear of retaliation.

Ultimately Israel will probably argue that these advanced calls to vacate these regions were prior notification, and that together with their intelligence pointing to Hamas operating in these places was sufficient consideration for civilians and sufficient grounds for shelling.

 

[Louis Cypher]

This is where the insanity of some of the ways this conflict is discussed in the west (UK & US) is leading to


Summary if you can't be bothered to watch the video: A muslim student on the BBC show University Challenge who, as part of a team of 4 for Christ Church Oxford, has been singled out by right wing media (obviously) and a member of the house of lords, a Baroness in fact, on social media for apparently being antisemitic and pro palestine on the show because the teams mascot was a blue octopus teddy which is a very antisemitic symbol, and her jacket was the colours of the Palestine flag. The baroness went so far as to call for the student to be thrown off her course and arrested, linking her tweet to No10 and the Foreign Secretary James Cleverly.... The BBC has come out to clarify that the show was filmed in MARCH this year and the octopus mascot is simply the teams favourite animal and the girls jacket is infact from a highstreet retailer and is not the colours of any nations flag. The levels of normalised islamaphobia in the UK media and political classes is utterly disgusting (obviously they didnt call the other 3 white members of her team antisemitic or call for them to be arrested) and the fact they actually think this is them showing some kind of support for Israel or to Jewish people is mental, while god knows now what sh1t this poor innocent girl is gonna get for being publically decried in this way

 

[soliloquy]

Ha, that's a fair point. But in the Palestinian case, it is not as much their inability to leave, but a combination of their desire to not leave combined with not having any safe place to go or other nation to welcome them. These are not particularly imposed constraints by Israel, but implied constraints by lack of help from neighboring countries and regions.

I partly agree, well...mostly agree.

Neighboring countries could help, sure, but it isn't their responsibility to help different country.
Canada, for example, is proudly claiming to accept 500k refugees from Palestine, but those Palestinians shouldn't have to leave their homes in the first place.

The evacuation notice, also, I find a bit problematic. Evacuation, the term, itself, implies a friendly notice. But what IDF is doing is giving death threats. 'if you don't leave, you die' that isn't an evacuation, even if media wants to sugar coat it.

Additionally, as you said, if they are to evacuate, there is no where safe for them to go. Death surrounds them in every direction. And worse still, if it isn't the crumbling buildings that will do them in; then it might be the IDF. If not the IDF then food starvation or dehydration. If not that, then infection and lack of medical supplies. Death is surrounding them from every direction.


Please be mindful, I'm not arguing with you, Narad. Just talking about how silly the media coverage is of this, and media using manipulative words to make it seem like Palestine 'deserves' this.

 

[StevenC]

This is where the insanity of some of the ways this conflict is discussed in the west (UK & US) is leading to


Summary if you can't be bothered to watch the video: A muslim student on the BBC show University Challenge who, as part of a team of 4 for Christ Church Oxford, has been singled out by right wing media (obviously) and a member of the house of lords, a Baroness in fact, on social media for apparently being antisemitic and pro palestine on the show because the teams mascot was a blue octopus teddy which is a very antisemitic symbol, and her jacket was the colours of the Palestine flag. The baroness went so far as to call for the student to be thrown off her course and arrested, linking her tweet to No10 and the Foreign Secretary James Cleverly.... The BBC has come out to clarify that the show was filmed in MARCH this year and the octopus mascot is simply the teams favourite animal and the girls jacket is infact from a highstreet retailer and is not the colours of any nations flag. The levels of normalised islamaphobia in the UK media and political classes is utterly disgusting (obviously they didnt call the other 3 white members of her team antisemitic or call for them to be arrested) and the fact they actually think this is them showing some kind of support for Israel or to Jewish people is mental, while god knows now what sh1t this poor innocent girl is gonna get for being publically decried in this way

This is the same nonsense they did to Greta Thunberg last month for having an emotion octopus in a picture.

Incidentally, there's some strong irony that the same people who call any criticism of Israel antisemitic are the ones insisting any support for Palestine must be accompanied by condemnation of Hamas. But I don't know if they're smart enough to see that.

 

[soliloquy]

This is the same nonsense they did to Greta Thunberg last month for having an emotion octopus in a picture.

Incidentally, there's some strong irony that the same people who call any criticism of Israel antisemitic are the ones insisting any support for Palestine must be accompanied by condemnation of Hamas. But I don't know if they're smart enough to see that.

hypocrisy:

I speak ill of Saudi Arabia; that doesn't make me an Islamaphobe.

I speak ill of the Vatican; that doesn't make me a Christophobe.

I speak ill of India; that doesn't make me a Hinduphobe.

I speak ill of Vietnam/Cambodia/China/Laos/Thailand/Indonesia/Malaysia; that doesn't make me a Buddhaphobe.

and yet, i speak ill of Israel, i'm anti-semetic?

the country is not a people. The people is not the country. The religion is not the country. The politicial view is not the religion. The far right can not be a religious ideology.

Its easy for the country to play victim in every aspect of life if doing so supports their narrow views. Its acting in bad faith

 

[Drew]

To add to this, Israel called for the evacuation of these areas with the hospitals (as far as I'm aware, though this will shift as they move around). Humanitarian groups will say it's impossible to simply evacuate these areas, especially when it comes to patients in the hospital, and yet further "left" leaning groups will say any call for mass evacuation is itself a war crime. I can't deny the partial futility in asking a resource poor nation to move hospital patients through a battle zone, but the alternative is also that there would be an area that is completely non-targetable from which Hamas could operate with pretty much no fear of retaliation.

Ultimately Israel will probably argue that these advanced calls to vacate these regions were prior notification, and that together with their intelligence pointing to Hamas operating in these places was sufficient consideration for civilians and sufficient grounds for shelling

As I understand both hospitals are within the part of Gaza Israel called to evacuate. However, I mean, you're right - hospitals in active war zones aren't normally known for holding people who can just get up and go at a whim; existing patients likely couldn't relocate, and there are a whole bunch of wounded there now, at least a few probably associated with Hamas but also something like 60-70% of buildings in Northern Gaza have now had at least some shelling damage so a whole bunch of civilians as well. I'm seeing claimed occupancy rates of 190%+ from the WHO, and the system is basically collapsing under the weight of the strain. It's a mess, and an absolute dilemma.

Long story short, I think Israel is going to need pretty compelling evidence that both of these hospitals really were primary Hamas command centers to justify striking them. The possibility isn't going to be enough. Yes, Hamas has committed some atrocities here, but one of the fundamental differences between a terrorist group and a nation state is the latter is kind of bound by keeping the moral high ground and the former is not, and Israel has been losing ground in the war of public opinion precisely because they don't seem to be overly concerned with this distinction.

I've heard it reported that one of the US reluctances behind the newly agreed four day cease fire is it will allow journalists into the war zone for a period of time and documenting the extent of the damage may sway public opinion against Israel. And I mean that IS a valid concern, regardless of where your sympathies lie.

 

[soliloquy]

As I understand both hospitals are within the part of Gaza Israel called to evacuate. However, I mean, you're right - hospitals in active war zones aren't normally known for holding people who can just get up and go at a whim; existing patients likely couldn't relocate, and there are a whole bunch of wounded there now, at least a few probably associated with Hamas but also something like 60-70% of buildings in Northern Gaza have now had at least some shelling damage so a whole bunch of civilians as well. I'm seeing claimed occupancy rates of 190%+ from the WHO, and the system is basically collapsing under the weight of the strain. It's a mess, and an absolute dilemma.

Long story short, I think Israel is going to need pretty compelling evidence that both of these hospitals really were primary Hamas command centers to justify striking them. The possibility isn't going to be enough. Yes, Hamas has committed some atrocities here, but one of the fundamental differences between a terrorist group and a nation state is the latter is kind of bound by keeping the moral high ground and the former is not, and Israel has been losing ground in the war of public opinion precisely because they don't seem to be overly concerned with this distinction.

I've heard it reported that one of the US reluctances behind the newly agreed four day cease fire is it will allow journalists into the war zone for a period of time and documenting the extent of the damage may sway public opinion against Israel. And I mean that IS a valid concern, regardless of where your sympathies lie.

information isn't conclusive here, but from what I've read, about 50 journalists have been killed since October 7th, all of which killed by IDF. Some targeted personally, others caught in 'cross fire'. Wearing a 'press' vest appears to be a bulls eye target.

 

[StevenC]

 

[soliloquy]

Where is the puke reaction icon when we need it?!

 

[soliloquy]

Maybe someone more educated, and level minded (maybe a centrist?) Can explain this hostage trade to me?

Palestine/Hamas is to hand over 50 people.
In turn, IDF/Israel is to give 150 women and children.

Why am I hearing that the 150 women and children are all rapists/serial killers? (There might be some truth to it...but I feel like that is propaganda?)

I'm ignorant in this, and none of the news outlets is explaining this (to me). I was under the impression that the ones jailed in Israel are charged for offenses that an Israeli won't even get a slap on the wrist for. Similar to how the black and Aboriginal population in Canada (US too) gets jailed for minor offenses their white counterparts won't be.


Am...am I right in my understanding here? I am sincerely trying to understand this, and not stir up controversy here, so please, educate me?

 

[narad]

Maybe someone more educated, and level minded (maybe a centrist?) Can explain this hostage trade to me?

Palestine/Hamas is to hand over 50 people.
In turn, IDF/Israel is to give 150 women and children.

Why am I hearing that the 150 women and children are all rapists/serial killers? (There might be some truth to it...but I feel like that is propaganda?)

I'm ignorant in this, and none of the news outlets is explaining this (to me). I was under the impression that the ones jailed in Israel are charged for offenses that an Israeli won't even get a slap on the wrist for. Similar to how the black and Aboriginal population in Canada (US too) gets jailed for minor offenses their white counterparts won't be.


Am...am I right in my understanding here? I am sincerely trying to understand this, and not stir up controversy here, so please, educate me?

I think your biases are wagging the dog here. I can't much imagine a clearer example of starting with a hypothesis and trying to find an opinion to validate it.

Where are you getting your news? None of the prisoners are killers. They're typically crimes against Israel.

 

[JimF]

...One of the fundamental differences between a terrorist group and a nation state is the latter is kind of bound by keeping the moral high ground and the former is not, and Israel has been losing ground in the war of public opinion precisely because they don't seem to be overly concerned with this distinction.

Yes! Thank you for putting into words what I've been struggling to articulate for a few weeks. An actual recognised nation state with government departments etc should be held to a higher level of accountability.
I doubt Hamas have a minister for fisheries or public transport.

 

[JimF]

Where are you getting your news? None of the prisoners are killers. They're typically crimes against Israel.

Genuine question, not a rhetorical gotcha: Would these crimes include the throwing of stones against the IDF? Or more serious?

 

[narad]

Genuine question, not a rhetorical gotcha: Would these crimes include the throwing of stones against the IDF? Or more serious?

As far as I'm aware, yes.