Ground noise on switch on touch, Oak Grigsby 5way superswitch.

[ZeroS1gnol]

Hi,

I just installed a Oak Grigsby 5way superswitch. First time I did the electronics myself. What an experience...It always feel like I'm short of one hand while soldering.
Now, sound works, and it sounds like the correct pickups and coils are selected in each setting. Before I put back the back plates I had some static noise in my signal, but that cleared up once I put them back on. I did not put the sleeve on the switch yet and when I touch it, buzz buzz... Especially when I only touch the switch and not the strings. Sounds like a ground noise to me. I think I have grounded it properly. Is this normal, or do I need to re-evaluate my wiring? No buzzing when I touch the bare metal on the pots or strings. Any tips?

 

[bostjan]

Doesn't sound right to me. Do you have a photo?

 

[tedtan]

If you’re getting noise, it should be when you aren‘t touching anything metal on the guitar. Once you touch something metal (including the strings), the noise should stop because you would be grounding it.

I would check your grounding again.

 

[wheresthefbomb]

If you have a multimeter, check all your connections with that

If you don't, this is a great reason to go buy one

 

[owlexifry]

If you have a multimeter, check all your connections with that

If you don't, this is a great reason to go buy one

+1
the "continuity" function will be your friend.

 

[ZeroS1gnol]

I borrowed a multimeter to check all connections between lugs to ground and pots. First, this is my diagram, from Dimarzio:

https://d2emr0qhzqfj88.cloudfront.net/s3fs-public/diagrams/2hum2vol_ep1112n_0.pdf

What I found out, and I am wondering if this is the cause of my issue, the neck pickup wires connected on the top right side of the switch don't make a connection with the ground wire that is connected to the top left lug. Here is a photo of how it's soldered:

New item by Raymon Van Vught

photos.app.goo.gl

I don't see anything wrong with the connection, they are firmly in place and they do connect with the pot, just not the ground on top left lug.

Any suggestions?

I doubt that solving this will lead to anything tangible, because I am already contemplating getting a different switch. I have been playing around with it and don't really like it. It's very rubbery and doesn't snap into position like other switches I have used. Sometimes it cuts signal if it doesn't snap. I am wondering if this is a counterfeit switch, because I heard good things about Oak Grigsby's, but frankly I think this one switches like shit. I am very keen to know if I did anything wrong though!

 

[bostjan]

Not the greatest-looking solder joints in general. For example, the red wire on lugs 1 and 2 of pole 4 looks particularly suspect.

I'd recommend:

1. heat your soldering iron.
2. tin the ends of your wires.
3. tin the contacts you are using (lugs).
4. hold the end of the wire and the contact together with the iron until the solder completely melts. You will know it is completely melted when it looks like shiny metal and mot milky or bubbly or chunky.
5. when you remove the heat, make sure that the wire doesn't move relative to the contact for 3-4 seconds, just to make sure that the solder has time to resolidify firmly.

I also hear what you are saying about the Oak Grigsby switches. I'm personally not a fan of them, because I don't want to pay close to $30 for a switch that feels "spongy" when I can buy a $4 chinese toggle off of Newark (local electronics distributor) that feels better and lasts me longer. Unfortunately, though, of blade switches, it's basically a monopoly. The company that manufactures Oak Grigsby's also manufactures CLR and probably several other blade switches. The issue is specialization - blade switches are used in guitars. Toggles are used virtually everywhere. But, if you want a 5-position 4-pole superswitch, to keep your control layout tidy, there are very few options other than blade switches, but they do exist. Anyway, probably not helpful...

 

[wheresthefbomb]

What @bostjan said. I'm not the greatest at soldering, i do a fair bit of re-soldering joints that "look" "good" when swapping electronics. Lots can be wrong with a solder joint when it's applied by a noob like myself, sometimes it takes a couple tries to get it right. If it doesn't go, it doesn't go.

 

[mastapimp]

After looking at your picture, it appears you have no kind of electrical shielding in the control cavity or back plate. The buzzing you're getting could be you injecting a noisy signal somewhere into the circuit as your body makes an extension of the circuit when you make contact to it and you're acting as a large antenna. I usually line my control cavities with wide strips of copper tape and do some "stitching" with the solder, also make sure it's grounded. Might fix your issues if everything is wired correctly.

As far as soldering goes, the advice mentioned in some of these other replies is good, but I'd also recommend using a flux to help reflow and get good joints. Most decent solder has a flux core and leaded solder is much easier to work with, but a little extra flux after the fact and reflowing the connection will pretty much guarantee a solid joint.

 

[ZeroS1gnol]

Thanks for the replies. Now please bear with me, I have a bunch of questions/comments.

First and foremost, time to move on to a new switch. The one we were discussing is a POS, which I will never enjoy using. It brings me to the fundamental question: do I even need a superswitch for what I'm trying to achieve? Two volume, no tone, with the following positions:
Bridge series
Bridge inner coil
Bridge and Neck outer coils series
Neck inner coil
Neck series

My gut feeling says yes, I need a superswitch, or I will not have enough connections on the switch to connect positions 2 and 4.

I have started a thread about picking a switch a while back and it resulted in me getting the Oak Grigsby, because it would be a cost effective solution. There is the Dimarzio EP1112, with a promise on their website "Each position in this stout switch translates to the hand with a positive ‘click’ – no more need to look down at your instrument mid-performance to determine which of your pickups is selected. This switch's precision is accomplished through careful machining and a universal tension cam that replaces the spring found on most other blade switches.". But I have no way of telling if it actually clicks as good as they say. (Feel free to comment if you own one). The Ibanez VLX91 sounds appealing in quality, but is hard to solder. (Not a good idea if I need to solder it with my skills). More advice on picking a switch is very welcome.

Regarding the shielding, this guitar is a refinished RG. The luthier who did it did a crap job at it if you ask me, because he only sanded down the original black epoxy and sprayed over it. Problem is, the epoxy is so hard, if you tap anything against the outer paint it chips off and does not dent the wood. I assume he didn't even sand down the shielding paint in the cavity. There was no buzzing with the previous switch afaik, but I will regard the copper tape comment. Certainly wouldn't hurt.

Regarding soldering flux: I have used a 60% tin 40% lead solder. Doesn't say it's rosin core on the label, so perhaps this was also leading to uglier joints. Now wondering, how would you apply the flux? I can only hold two things at a time. Noob question perhaps, but this is the beginner forum, right?

Now the final thing, I don't have capacitors soldered to my volume pots. The Dimarzio diagram I shared earlier also does not mention them. I do notice some high end roll off when I turn down the volume. Which capacitor would fix that?

Thanks for your patience and help.

 

[tedtan]

I think the Dimarzio super switch is the Oak Grigsby, just rebranded, so avoid that one if you don’t like the Oak Grigsby.

Check the Schaller Megaswitch - I think they have a model that will do what you want.

 

[ZeroS1gnol]

I think the Dimarzio super switch is the Oak Grigsby, just rebranded, so avoid that one if you don’t like the Oak Grigsby.

Check the Schaller Megaswitch - I think they have a model that will do what you want.

I did check the Schaller Megaswitch, but I didn't understand it at first and avoided it. According to their site I need a Megaswitch M for custom wiring. Am I right that it's the same principle as the OG and Dimarzio switch? It does have 24 connections and the diagrams on their site mark specific points as the common for each group of 6.

 

[mastapimp]

Regarding soldering flux: I have used a 60% tin 40% lead solder. Doesn't say it's rosin core on the label, so perhaps this was also leading to uglier joints. Now wondering, how would you apply the flux? I can only hold two things at a time. Noob question perhaps, but this is the beginner forum, right?

The rosin flux I use is liquid and comes in a tiny squeeze bottle with an applicator needle. A small drop will go a long way. It's viscous and won't run, so you just dab a tiny drop on the pre-tinned wire or metal you are soldering to and it should do its job.

 

[nickgray]

how would you apply the flux?

This video explained flux to me:

 

[tedtan]

I did check the Schaller Megaswitch, but I didn't understand it at first and avoided it. According to their site I need a Megaswitch M for custom wiring. Am I right that it's the same principle as the OG and Dimarzio switch? It does have 24 connections and the diagrams on their site mark specific points as the common for each group of 6.

I haven’t used the Megaswitch, so I can’t offer any advice from personal experience, I recommend it only on the basis of all the positive comments I hear about it. But from a cursory look, it appears that the M version is the one you want. I would confirm with Schaller before order.

I can recomend the Ibanez VLX-91 from personal experience, but do realize that two rows of poles alternate like this:
- 0 1 2 3 4 5
- 0 5 4 3 2 1
- 0 1 2 3 4 5
- 0 5 4 3 2 1

 

[bostjan]

Thanks for the replies. Now please bear with me, I have a bunch of questions/comments.

First and foremost, time to move on to a new switch. The one we were discussing is a POS, which I will never enjoy using. It brings me to the fundamental question: do I even need a superswitch for what I'm trying to achieve? Two volume, no tone, with the following positions:
Bridge series
Bridge inner coil
Bridge and Neck outer coils series
Neck inner coil
Neck series

I'm not sure exactly what "superswitch" is supposed to mean in this context, but, yes, you need something with more poles than a standard DPDT switch to do all of that in one switch.

My gut feeling says yes, I need a superswitch, or I will not have enough connections on the switch to connect positions 2 and 4.

I have started a thread about picking a switch a while back and it resulted in me getting the Oak Grigsby, because it would be a cost effective solution. There is the Dimarzio EP1112, with a promise on their website "Each position in this stout switch translates to the hand with a positive ‘click’ – no more need to look down at your instrument mid-performance to determine which of your pickups is selected. This switch's precision is accomplished through careful machining and a universal tension cam that replaces the spring found on most other blade switches.". But I have no way of telling if it actually clicks as good as they say. (Feel free to comment if you own one). The Ibanez VLX91 sounds appealing in quality, but is hard to solder. (Not a good idea if I need to solder it with my skills). More advice on picking a switch is very welcome.

Sounds like marketing bullshit to me.

Regarding the shielding, this guitar is a refinished RG. The luthier who did it did a crap job at it if you ask me, because he only sanded down the original black epoxy and sprayed over it. Problem is, the epoxy is so hard, if you tap anything against the outer paint it chips off and does not dent the wood. I assume he didn't even sand down the shielding paint in the cavity. There was no buzzing with the previous switch afaik, but I will regard the copper tape comment. Certainly wouldn't hurt.

Copper tape is a little bit expensive, but, considering how well it shields, I think it's a no-brainer. Just make sure that your shielding, whatever you use, is grounded, and not free floating, otherwise, it won't be as effective.

Regarding soldering flux: I have used a 60% tin 40% lead solder. Doesn't say it's rosin core on the label, so perhaps this was also leading to uglier joints. Now wondering, how would you apply the flux? I can only hold two things at a time. Noob question perhaps, but this is the beginner forum, right?

If you have flux paste, grab a toothpick, and dip it in the flux, then swipe it across the contact. You probably won't even see any flux there, but even a microscopic amount helps the solder go where it needs to go. You still need to follow the technique as usual, though, flux or no. Flux makes the job easier for sure, and is highly recommended, but I know some people who refuse to use flux and their stuff still turns out okay. The main thing is to make sure that the solder fully melts. It shouldn't end up looking globby like that.

Now the final thing, I don't have capacitors soldered to my volume pots. The Dimarzio diagram I shared earlier also does not mention them. I do notice some high end roll off when I turn down the volume. Which capacitor would fix that?

Thanks for your patience and help.

So, a capacitor acts like a filter. It will let high frequencies go through it and low frequencies get blocked. How are you adding a capacitor to a volume pot? If it is in series, it'll roll off your bass by blocking it from making it to your output jack. I guess that might combat high-end rolloff, but maybe not in the nicest way. If you are cool with that, then you can try some different values. The bigger the capacitor (in pF or µF=1 000 000 pF), the lower the cutoff frequency. The lower the cutoff frequency, the less signal gets blocked. But I think the answer is basically a matter of taste. It could simply be that your pots are too low in value, and you just need bigger better ones... What value are your pots?

 

[ZeroS1gnol]

Great replies everyone!

Bostjan, I have 500k pots, fairly standard for humbuckers I guess. Will experiment with a 22nF capacitor, which I read about being middle ground for 500k. If I don't like it, I'll take it out...

 

[bostjan]

Great replies everyone!

Bostjan, I have 500k pots, fairly standard for humbuckers I guess. Will experiment with a 22nF capacitor, which I read about being middle ground for 500k. If I don't like it, I'll take it out...

That should work. It might leave an apparent hump in the mids, though, which could be good or bad, depending on which tones you like. Easy enough to reverse if you don't like it.

Or you could try 1 meg pots.