Game of Thrones

Discussion in 'Movies, Books, TV & Media' started by flexkill, Mar 31, 2013.

  1. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    Hey, fix my spoiler tags in your quote! :lol:

    The two prophecies were the Azor Ahai pprophecy and the Prince That Was Promised prophecy, both of whom were suspected to point to the same person, who would save Westeros from the long night. And both definitely didn't point to Arya. It's since been pointed out that technically Cersei did die with Jaime/her little brother's hands around her neck so that may still have come to pass. The other two were summarily tossed out the window and no one in the show's universe seems to be giving a second thought to it.

    I don't think the "blue eyes" thing Melisandre said points to Dany. Melisandre was SUPER pointed about emphasizing blue eyes, in the scene right before Arya goes off to kill the night's king, and in the books Dany's eyes were violet. They were supposed to be violet for the show too and Emilia Clarke was supposed to wear colored contacts, but they fucked with her ability to see so much that they ended up deciding to forego them and just leave her eyes her natural blue color. So, yes, her eyes ARE blue in the show... but that wasn't by design.

    Re: the baby names - me too. :lol:

    Eh, I see it like a quote attributed to Winston Churchill, probably eroneously. He was evidently chatting with a very pretty woman at a charity auction one day, and on a whim asked her if she'd sleep with him if he agreed to donate ten thousand pounds to charity. She paused and thought for a moment, and finally said yeah, she probably would. He then asked if she'd do it if he donated five pounds, and she asked, indignant, "what kind of a woman do you think I am?!" He allegedly replied, "I thought we already established that; all we're doing now is haggling over the price."

    Basically... If Dany thinks in ANY situation burning someone alive is a suitable punishment, then as I see it she's already done for. She's a monster. All that we're doing now, debating the guilt of the old masters vs. the guilt of the Tarlys vs the guilt of Varys and finally the guilt of the peasants in an entire city is just haggling over the price.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2019
  2. mongey

    mongey SS.org Regular

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    I buy dany's arc . for 1 she has some dodgey genitics like Vaerys said. she lost 2 dragons, her aide and has lost multiple battles. and after believing she would be loved by people of Westeros she has also realized that no one accepts her or ever will , and she herself said all she has to work with is fear

    The pacing of the episode was so much better . they established early on the Cersei was fucked .it was never a contest. that gave them allot of time to really play out what was happening.

    golden company were a mcguffin . without them there is no potential even battle as its so lopsided . they were needed to make the prospect of a battle

    the only thing I found on the nose was Euron has now twice stubled upon important people in ship wreckage . missendai and jaime . also , unless I missed it ,I thought the baby would come up

    Arya's arc was a little weird. goes all that ways then decides to turn back after a few words from the hound . hopefully the scenes with her are relevant to what happens in the finale
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2019
  3. wankerness

    wankerness SS.org Regular

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    One of the few "armchair expert" internet whine things I've read that I actually agree with is that it could have been quite easily made MUCH more effective if
    they'd just had her other dragon get shot down like, after the bells (by some remaining scorpion she missed, maybe by Euron or something) instead of the previous episode. THAT would be a very believable reason for her to "suddenly" snap that not even those convinced there was no setup in previous seasons could have argued with. No one could have complained then besides the whiniest of the whiny.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2019
    thesnowdog and narad like this.
  4. Jonathan20022

    Jonathan20022 Engineer

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    I hate having to 'excuse' my right to critique a piece of media, because I see people doing that left and right just because they dislike what is being presented to them, but I guess I have to as well.

    The episode was visually stunning but thematically and story wise a complete and utter mess. A lot of it has been touched on, but goddamn it's hard to believe that this is the bowtie on all that's happened in the past decade.

    They're clearly setting up for a scuffle between Arya/Dany and Jon will have to intervene or finish the job himself. It's so blatant that I feel like me watching this upcoming sunday will just be a disappointing confirmation session. And for anyone actually saying this is consistent with Dany's behavior in past seasons is missing the point that she killed innocent people. She avoided this in all previous scenes and situations, the only people who were ever negatively affected by her were those who didn't align with her claim as well as her intentions.

    She COULD have been different, she didn't have to be the Mad Queen. It's just lazy writing at this point, and I see people getting frustrated that people are pointing this out in lieu of how good it looked. As someone with plenty of time working in media and videography, I can appreciate all the elements that the crew put into the show. But the writing is weak so all of that effort for may as well have all been a waste in my eyes when the experience drops this hard for a viewer.

    If you're gonna critique me, I'm not upset that it isn't resolving how I want it to. I let artists work as they please and I critique what we receive because it isn't exempt from it's shortcomings.

    If there's anything I want, it is Little Finger coming back with his ties to Bravos and slaughtering everyone left as a Faceless Man and culling all of this bullshit instead of the predictable finale I'm envisioning at this point on sunday.
     
  5. thraxil

    thraxil cylon

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    OK, I haven't seen this discussed here. Maybe I missed it. I also haven't read the books, so maybe it's clearer in them. But why is the Mountain so intent on fighting the Hound? The Hound's hatred for the Mountain is pretty well established going all the way back to childhood and we can totally understand why the Hound would be set on revenge. But they also spent the last few seasons establishing that undead Mountain is utterly under Cersei's control only to have him ignore her when the Hound shows up. I don't remember anything in their history that would justify that kind of deep-seated hatred. I mean, as Ser Gregor, he was clearly a prick but it felt more like he just kind of bullied and looked down on the Hound rather than having some major beef with him.
     
  6. Jonathan20022

    Jonathan20022 Engineer

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    bECauSe clEgAnE BoWl w00t
     
  7. wankerness

    wankerness SS.org Regular

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    Uhh...that might be a good question. I sure don't know. I don't remember how they last separated, though.
     
  8. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    I don't buy your bolded distinction.

    IMO, there are two points where Dany kills innocents.

    1) We all agree that slavery is wrong... But, when she buys her Unsullied, she's in a city where the slave trade is the law of the land and is a normal, accepted profession. We think they're morally in the wrong because they're buying and training slaves... but with respect to local law and tradition, they are technicallly innocent. Dany negotiates a good-faith sale where she sells Drogon to the slavers in return for every Unsullied in the city... And then renegs on her side of the deal, attacks the slavers with Drogon and her slave army. Does she ultimately free her slaves who in return choose to follow her? Yes. Do we as contemporary viewers believe that slavery is morally depraved? Yes. IS there a sort of Robin Hood morality to her actions? Yes. But, in Astapor, with respect to local law and custom... Dany kills a whole slew of innocents.

    2) When Dany married Khal Drogo in the start of the story, with it came the expectation that after his death she would become one of the dosh khaleen, and retire to Vaes Dothrak for the rest of her life. When Drogo died, most of his riders fled, but Dany decided she would lead her own khal instead, with the remainder. In Dany's faceoff with the rest of the Dothraki in Season 6, they're there to bring her to Vaes Dothrak, again in respect to Dothraki law and tradition. Instead of going with them, she decides she's going to refuse, and to ensure she can't be brought against her will, she burns everyone alive.

    The first example... Yeah, slavers are objectively bad, and she needs an army, so who cares what happens to them, right? Ok... And then you get to the Dothraki, and, well, ok, so maybe they have a point... But Dany needs to be free to free the cities of Slaver's Bay from the slave trade, and then go back to Westeros to retake the Iron Throne and break the Lannister's grip on the crown, so if a few Dothraki khals standing in her way have to die, that's hardly too high a price to pay, right...? But, you can see, we're stepping into increasingly ambiguous moral ground, where from her viewpoint maybe they're not innocent, but increasingly it's hard to objectively agree with her. And then you get to the Talys, where maybe there's a case the elder isn't innocent, but the younger just wants to support his father, and why not just throw them in jail, as is the norm, rather than burn them alive?

    Idunno. You say she's never killed innocents before... But objectyively I don't think I can agree with that. And, by her own argument earlier in the episode before, if the city of King's Landing is loyal to Cersei, they're hardly innocent. Is that a sound argument? No, not at all... but her arguments have been getting gradually greyer for a long time before that scene.

    The difference isn't whether or not she believes what she's doing is right - rather, it's whether or not we agree with her, and the show gradually adds doubt as we go along.
     
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  9. Jonathan20022

    Jonathan20022 Engineer

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    So we're comparing Slavers and a small group of large men intent on using her for their own benefit to an entire city of literally innocent people?

    Why do you care about what happens to the morally unjust, but those who are simply residents of a rival faction/city are suddenly just as eligible to be on the chopping block?

    So let me clarify, she's never killed innocents without an actual reason before now. If we're taking moral ground here to justify the previous killing of innocents, then you have to agree that there is definitely nuance and that nuking an entire city is far more cruel than killing a group of individuals standing in your way, not to mention actively threatening you.

    I'm not in favor of her winning much less surviving this and haven't for awhile.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2019
  10. PunkBillCarson

    PunkBillCarson SS.org Regular

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    At the same time, she has literally roasted people who have refused to follow her. That would be like someone from another country claiming that they have authority over you just because they have a claim to the Presidency. Obviously, the wrench in that argument is that you have to be a citizen to rule America, but still, imagine for a second we didn't have that rule. Someone comes here with a fuck ton of weapons and an army, demands you pledge fealty to them or you die. Pledging fealty to them is considered treason given that you already have a ruler and even if you rejected them without thinking of the grounds of treason and just didn't want to follow them, they just kill you on the spot regardless of what they know or don't know about you. This is NOT out of character for Dany. It's not a sudden development. There have been clues to this all along, she just really took it up a notch or two hundred thousand in this last episode. Dany has a weak mind essentially, with very little patience. She did one thing right when she came over and that was making Gendry no longer a bastard, but she hasn't bothered to look to the future to see what kind of rule she would have IF she wants to keep her gigantic pet. He's either going to be roaming the countryside eating whatever the fuck he wants, children and adults, livestock alike or he's going to be there for her daily executions when someone so much as looks at her or breathes wrong. All she wants is a throne with not a care in the world how she gets it. Hell, she didn't even care that the soldiers needed rest before their assault on King's Landing. She's got a one track mind, we've seen that. It's "do whatever the fuck I say or die" and that goes to her own advisors even.
     
  11. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    Dany's actions have always been on a gradient, with "extremely easy to defend" on the left, and "totally indefensible" on the right. In the early episodes, we as viewers and readers had zero problems convincing ourselves that what we were seeing was all the way to the left, but as the show and books have gone on, there's been a very steady rightward progression. We just finally had to own up to the fact that suddenly, we're way right of center, and a lot of the fact we believed we were well to the left before had as much to do with our own biases and morality, and we were always probably further right than we realized.
     
  12. wankerness

    wankerness SS.org Regular

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    I'm increasingly on team Dany here. If she DIDN'T act ruthlessly and incinerate anyone that wouldn't follow her, she wouldn't be taken seriously by any of the remaining population, especially the male rulers we've seen recently. All the previous dudes did it! Like, remember a lonnnnng time ago when Theon was forced into beheading that guy just for being an ingrate? That's the society that we see on this show, and trying to judge her actions with some kind of modern societal ideals seems to miss some kind of point or ignore world-building.

    Are you trying to argue that she should be kind and soft like your oppressive gender normative beliefs dictate women should be in comparison to men?!?!?! (98% joking there sorry :p)

    I'm kinda starting to see her actions as the best possible route if she really wants to be taken seriously. Everyone's just kinda shitting on her, partly just for being a woman, in the previous couple episodes, ex the fact that Jon (the wimp) has greater birthright claim than her thanks to being male. All she can really do to legitimize herself over them is beat them at their own stupid game. Which she sure did!!!

    We'll see if she's portrayed as being legitimately "crazy" instead of just ruthless rational in the next episode, I guess. But, at this point, I can definitely see it going the latter, if the show has any courage in its convictions and tries to keep it set in the world it takes place in instead of copping out and throwing modern political ideals into it (ie, surely you'd have to be nice to the commonfolk to be an effective ruler!)

    FYI I've seen about 500 headlines all over the net/buzzfeed ads/etc that all say what happened that ep so using spoilertags is ridiculous :D
     
  13. mongey

    mongey SS.org Regular

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    I thought that too. they did almost fight at the hands tournament ,an that have been the last time they have seen each other ? but its kind of a thin plot line if so
     
  14. wankerness

    wankerness SS.org Regular

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    I saw someone ask that elsewhere and get the answer "CAUSE THE WHOLE INTERNET WOULDN'T STFU ABOUT HOW MUCH THEY WANTED TO SEE CLEGANEBOWL" which may be accurate!
     
  15. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    I thought the last episode was great. Great cinematography, great acting, great effects...

    I didn't understand all of the hate for the storytelling I read afterward.

    I thought the Night King arc ended up being fairly disappointing, though. The dynamic between him and Bran seemed totally ruined to me, there was so much potential there, and the writers went for the path of least effort, in my opinion.
    Dany's descent into madness was earned to me. She showed signs of mercurial indifference and capability of violence for years. She had been behaving increasingly impatient and she had been threatening her closest allies. Sending Jorah away to die, burning the Tarlys, killing Varys... that and the emotional crap she's been through losing two dragons and everyone close to her except Grey Worm, who, remember, is a quite violent dude, it all fits.
    I do wish that the Mountain and Qyburn had had a little more development, but I guess there's just no time.
    The hardest parts for me to believe were 1. A random white horse appears (where every living thing has been burninated) and 2. Jaime is evidently the Black Knight from Monty Python ("tis but a flesh wound)
     
  16. beerandbeards

    beerandbeards Majestic Shoveler

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    [​IMG]
    The Mountain
     
  17. TheDivineWing22

    TheDivineWing22 You've got the touch

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    The reason Jon has the better claim isn't because he is male (probably helps) but is because the line is succession would have went from Aerys to Rhaegar to Jon (Aegon.) Her whole claim to the throne, other than being a conqueror, is that she is the last in the line of the Targaryens. The true rulers of Westeros prior to the usurpers taking the throne.

    But, still, you're probably right that she isnt taken as seriously as she would be if she was a man.
     
  18. Chris Bowsman

    Chris Bowsman SS.org Regular

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    I’m undecided about the Daenerys “twist.”

    The Mountain/Hound... cool fight if nothing else. Knife to the face with no effect? May as well have him walk out of the fire.

    Cersei & Jaimie? Fucking LAME.
     
  19. Lorcan Ward

    Lorcan Ward 7slinger

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    I am heavily biased from reading the books but after how badly they handled Dorne, Stannis marching on Winterfell, new Sansa reverting back to old Sansa, Arya's training and a bunch of other things in S5 I just had to check out. I only started watching again recently because the books didn't come out in the 4 years between and I didn't want some big end game twist spoiled while browsing FB someday. Don't get me wrong there were some of the best parts of the show in S5 like Hardhome and the walk of shame but I'm just surprised it took so long for the general audience to turn around and question why something didn't make any sense or was poorly built up. I guess you can forgive bad parts when the good parts are amazing but they tipped the scales way too far this season for most viewers. It sure is fun TV though and like people have already said in this thread way better than the majority of shows even when its bad.

    Season finale in 5 days! It's crazy to think this first aired in 2011. There will be a tidal wave of fantasy shows coming in the next few years now. Many already far in development.
     
  20. gnoll

    gnoll SS.org Regular

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    This was probably my least favorite episode so far. Definately not a fan of this season :(
     

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