EVs vs ICEs

[TedEH]

I keep hearing that longer trips are "just fine, as long as you've planned ahead". I don't know if that's plain truth, or EV owners justifying the inconvenience to themselves because they already own the cars and can't do much about it, or somewhere in between those two. It's probably somewhere in between those two.

While shopping around though, I've definitely been excluding anything that can't go at least 300km on a full charge. Like the MX-30 EV is out of the question - only ~150km in one shot is a deal breaker. A car that can't stay on for 2 hours is not worth $40k to me.

 

[StevenC]

I'd argue that, in most cases, those occasional and exceptional jaunts would be better served by a rental.

This is exactly what I'm getting at. People need to get out of the mentality of having one car for every possible scenario, and accept that the right car is one that covers 99% of your journeys.

I've driven multi thousand mile journeys across America, and honestly when you include stopping for food and rest breaks (which one absolutely should do frequently), doing the same journeys in EVs wouldn't have added significant time.

I get some Texas might go for a raw 400 or 500 miles, but that's also an incredibly stupid thing to do.

 

[TedEH]

I find I can barely sit in a car for more than an hour without wanting to take a break - I can't imagine going 400 miles without stopping along the way.

In tangential news - I tried a Kona EV yesterday. I think I want one. Feels like a normal car, doesn't look like a spaceship, but still has that fun instant-go thing that EVs do.

 

[spudmunkey]

That Mazda is the biggest EV joke on the market at the moment.

That said...I do halfway kinda see their point. If you live in a city and rarely leave, there's little reason to pay for and carry 1,000 more lbs of excess battery you'll never use, which kills your efficiency and "zoom zoom" handling, acceleration and braking.

I get it, I really do. I see that there's a niche market for it with a specific customer in mind.

But then why does it still cost nearly $40k, and still weighs about the same as the Kona/Niro twins?

 

[tedtan]

I can't imagine going 400 miles without stopping along the way.

I don’t know anyone going 400 miles without stopping, even in Texas ; my original point was that if those stops need to involve recharging, plan on spending time at a Walmart. Because even though there are other charging station options listed online, based on reports from people actually driving electric vehicles and local news reports, half or more of those options don’t actually work when you get to them. So until we get more proper recharging stations installed, learn to accept recharging at Walmart if you want to take an EV on longer trips.

 

[TedEH]

I have a suspicion that Texas Walmart and Quebec Walmart are different beasts, 'cause I wouldn't think of it being a concern to wait in a Walmart for a while. Point taken though.

I made the mistake of mentioning during a family / Easter thing this weekend that I was considering an EV - the "man of the house" is terrified of electric cars for some reason - he saw on the news that they all explode or something, I don't know - but he insisted on lecturing me about the risks and how it's going to break down and nobody will know what to do and there's not enough chargers and I'm going to get stranded and HE would never buy an electric car, and I'm going to waste my money, and it's actually going to be more expensive to run than a normal car, etc etc etc. Dude drives a motorcycle. An open-air death trap on two wheels that can't be used at all in the winter - and all the power to him - but somehow it's unacceptable to have to plan ahead before a trip.....?

 

[spudmunkey]

he saw on the news that they all explode or something

Per this study by an auto insurance comapany: https://www.autoinsuranceez.com/gas-vs-electric-car-fires/


I don't remember the source off the top of my head, but I remember that when I looked into it late last year, that deaths from car fires per mile driven for ICE vehicles was between 2 and 3x that of EVs, and that even included house fires that were found to be caused by vehicles.

EVs catching fire are newsworthy partially because they are rare. One in 8 fires every day that fire departments respond to are caused by ICE vehicles. 600 car fires a day.

When they do go up, EVs are a potent bit of energy that's hard to put out...but it's quite hard to do, and when they do start to go, it's less of an explosive expansion so you're more likely to have more time to get out. But you could be more likely to die in certain types of accidents...but then there are other types where you're more likely to die an in ICE. 🤷‍♂️

 

[spudmunkey]

Case in point: This happened in one of the very busy tunnels here in the Bay Area this afternoon, two days away from the anniversary of a fire in the same tunnel that killed 7 people. Yet there's not a single mention of it on the NBC, ABC, Fox or CBS local affiliate news sites, nor the SF Chronicle website. It's not an EV. But if this were a Tesla? It'd likely be the leading story on almost every newscast, even outside of the local area.

 

[TedEH]

I very much expected this was the case. I've been trying to do the due diligence thing and listen to people's arguments about why EVs are bad and most of the points are made-up nonsense. Claiming they're deadly because of battery fires (which they aren't) or deadly because they're heavier (which is only very slightly true - they are a little bit heavier, but most EVs are in smaller form-factors that still keep them under the average weight of other cars on the road sooooo), or claiming that you lose almost all your range in the winter and will have to drive with the heat off and a jacket on (I've never heard an actual EV owner say this, only people who are paranoid about it). There are whole youtube channels that seem to be dedicated to fear-mongering about electric cars and they have to make stuff up or make giant stretches to make their points.

The one honest counter-point seems to be that charging may or may not be less convenient than going to gas stations, depending on your driving patterns and lifestyle, and roadtrips take more planning. I think it's probably great for some people, and not viable for others, and that's fine. I won't know for myself unless I try it.

 

[StevenC]

I don't know if I posted these before, but Alec has a bunch of great videos about his EV experience. This is the latest:

 

[tedtan]

Yeah, the negatives are overblown; it’s mostly fear on gearing by people who don’t know what they are talking about. Some may be issues for some people and complete nonissues for others (like charging). It really depends on the individual, where they live, and how they drive.

Other negatives are less immediate, like needing metals from China for manufacturing the batteries, which is more of a long term issue that will be felt on a larger scale rather than by the individual purchaser of the EV (trading dependence on oil for dependence on China is a bad strategic move), but engineers are working on developing battery formulations that don’t rely on these metals, so this may end up being a nonissue, too.

If it works for you, get one. Worst case, you don’t like it and sell it for something else, and that’s a long shot.

 

[Randy]

Per this study by an auto insurance comapany: https://www.autoinsuranceez.com/gas-vs-electric-car-fires/

I don't remember the source off the top of my head, but I remember that when I looked into it late last year, that deaths from car fires per mile driven for ICE vehicles was between 2 and 3x that of EVs, and that even included house fires that were found to be caused by vehicles.

EVs catching fire are newsworthy partially because they are rare. One in 8 fires every day that fire departments respond to are caused by ICE vehicles. 600 car fires a day.

When they do go up, EVs are a potent bit of energy that's hard to put out...but it's quite hard to do, and when they do start to go, it's less of an explosive expansion so you're more likely to have more time to get out. But you could be more likely to die in certain types of accidents...but then there are other types where you're more likely to die an in ICE. 🤷‍♂️

Not a valid debate as far as frequency but certainly a valid discussion regarding severity

Firefighters Still Aren't Sure How to Quickly Defeat EV Fires

Tesla models in particular come with their own set of problems.

jalopnik.com

"The first moments of an EV fire might appear relatively calm, with only smoke emanating from underneath the vehicle. But as thermal runaway takes hold, bright orange flames can quickly engulf an entire car. And because EV batteries are packed with an incredible amount of stored energy, one of these fires can get as hot as nearly 5,000 degrees Fahrenheit. Even when the fire appears to be over, latent heat may still be spreading within the cells of the battery, creating the risk that the vehicle could ignite several days later. One firefighter compared the challenge to a trick birthday candle that reignites after blowing it out.

Because EV fires are different, EV firefighting presents new problems. Firefighters often try to suppress car fires by, essentially, suffocating them. They might use foam extinguishers filled with substances like carbon dioxide that can draw away oxygen, or use a fire blanket that’s designed to smother flames. But because EV fires aren’t fueled by oxygen from the air, this approach doesn’t work. Instead, firefighters have to use lots and lots of water to cool down the battery. This is particularly complex when EV fires occur far from a hydrant, or if a local fire department only has a limited number of engines. Saltwater, which is extremely efficient at conducting electricity, can make the situation even worse."

How are electric vehicle fires put out?

A company that manufactures fire engines in Lyons, South Dakota, also produces a device which they bill as the key to extinguishing electric vehicle (EV) fires.

www.keloland.com

"Cooling an EV fire with water in the traditional way takes time and lots of water. Rosenbauer cites EV manufacturers as recommending as much as 8,000 gallons of water at a minimum over the course of several hours to properly stifle an EV fire."

 

[TedEH]

I don't know if I posted these before, but Alec has a bunch of great videos about his EV experience. This is the latest:

Yeah, I watched that one the other day when it was first posted - convenient timing.

Re: fires - it's still a focus on the worst case outcome of an already reasonably unlikely event. The kind of thing that is perfect for scare-mongering people away from EVs, or to get some article reads or youtube clicks. The idea that firefighting needs to adapt to a new kind of vehicle seems like a given, to me - and not something that should generally be a concern to the consumer unless it's expected to happen reasonable often, which even that Vox article that is the source for the link admits happens less often in EVs than regular cars. That seems like more of an argument to avoid cars that haven't complied with, or assisted in training firefighters, than to avoid EVs. Speaking of Tesla -

I tried a Model 3 today. My dad calls these cars "laptops on wheels" and now that I've tried one - I don't think he knows how right he is about this one. Feels like driving an iPhone. It's fun, for sure. Very "premium" feeling interior. It wants you to look and feel cool while you're in it. The Car of the Future. I'm glad I tried it, but I think it's a no-go for me, even if I wanted to spend that much right now, and even if a Model 3 had enough space to carry some music gear (it doesn't) and even if it wasn't stupidly low to the ground (I'd be worried about scraping every little rock and pothole), and even if it didn't mean giving money to Musk, etc. But at least now I have a reference point, since everyone insists on comparing every EV to Tesla.

I can't tell if I didn't like the attitude of the company, or the attitude of the salesman, who didn't seem to think I was serious - which is common for me, I have a young face, no fashion sense, dress like I can't afford new clothes, have a longwinded/meandering way of talking in person, etc. I had one dealership this week even refuse to let me test-drive on the road without some convincing that I actually serious. But anyway, I at least had on a work hoodie - maybe he should have thought a young-ish guy in a tech-company hoodie walking into a Tesla shop might be exactly their target audience, but then again, I don't know how I feel about the idea that a car company makes me question whether or not my attire makes me look rich-tech-bro enough. The guy just didn't seem all that interested in talking to me though. I had a lot of questions. He acted bored. Like I was delaying his lunch break but he was being paid to be polite about it.

And every question I asked had a non-answer. I tried to ask the normal questions about range etc., and of course he'll say it's more than I'll ever need. And besides, Tesla's charger network is waaaaaaay better than the other public chargers. I asked about how warranty worked and he told me to read it on the website - I'm not sure he even knew the answer. I'm in the office, right in front of you, in a "I might actually buy this from you" kind of context, and the question of "how long does the warranty last" gets a shrug and "it's all on the website".

When I walked into the shop, a guy was at the desk ahead of me, trying to get some service done on a car his company has. It was impossible not to overhear, 'cause the office is pretty small. The Tesla guy was giving him a hard time and refusing to answer any questions because the guy was not THE owner of the vehicle. Guy tries to explain that the owner's name is his boss, who isn't available to run around dealing with getting cars serviced, and that he was trying to do his job of making sure company vehicles were maintained - it sounded like he was trying to pick up a part or something - but the Tesla guy 1000% stone-walled the guy, all but told him to get out of the building. That's pretty concerning. So, having seen that - I figured I should ask how getting the car serviced works. I explain that as far as I understand, only Tesla can do maintenance on the cars, and the closest shop requires me to cross into another province and travel about 30 minutes, which is a significantly bigger deal than just bringing my car to the shop down the road - so what am I expected to do when I need work done on the car? Are there smaller licensed shops scattered around maybe that can do checkups or minor maintenance? Or do I always come back here?

Without skipping a beat, his answer was "we build the best cars, they basically don't break down, don't worry about it".

"Ok, but they're cars. Cars break down. All of them. It's inevitable something will need service - what do I do in that case?"
"That's what roadside assistance is for."
"Yeah, but does the car end up ultimately coming back here if it's something more serious than a flat tire?"
"Ok yeah, I guess so."

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I had some other questions about whether or not the car was always connected, etc. but didn't get too deep into it. It really does feel like these are cars for people who treat their cars like iPads with wheels. They're tech toys. Really fun to drive tech toys, sure, but it's more status than utility. I'm sure that's not news to anyone, but I didn't realize how that's ingrained in the whole company and the products themselves. I've always been more Android than Apple - and the salesman even found a moment to sort of brow-beat about the fact I have an android phone and not an iPhone.

The same card made by a company that wasn't so ass-backwards would be a real contender for me. It's a pretty impressive car, full of asterisks.

 

[Randy]

Yeah, I watched that one the other day when it was first posted - convenient timing.

Re: fires - it's still a focus on the worst case outcome of an already reasonably unlikely event. The kind of thing that is perfect for scare-mongering people away from EVs, or to get some article reads or youtube clicks. The idea that firefighting needs to adapt to a new kind of vehicle seems like a given, to me - and not something that should generally be a concern to the consumer unless it's expected to happen reasonable often, which even that Vox article that is the source for the link admits happens less often in EVs than regular cars. That seems like more of an argument to avoid cars that haven't complied with, or assisted in training firefighters, than to avoid EVs.

I was under the impression movement toward EVs was a multifaceted appeal and to some people, an almost impossible to extinguish electrical fire was a notable discussion, not just "fear mongering" but alright.

 

[TedEH]

In a context like this forum, I agree with you. Outside of the forum, I'd expect to find that kind of point being made by a youtube channel by a grumpy old guy on a video titled "Nobody is talking about how EVS ARE GOING TO KILL US ALL" that cites no sources and conveniently ignores that there's evidence that some EVs are considered to be safer vehicles, despite the extra weight, etc. No need to get defensive about it, I just don't think it's as big a concern for the average consumer as some might suggest it is IF the occurrences of fires at all are actually reduced to being significantly more rare than ICE.

 

[Randy]

I mean, Vox scores the furthest left on the scale of media sources. I doubt either article was written to drum up grumpy old men.

EVs these days are mostly a decision based on economics and (to some extent) inevitably but still an environmental consideration for some. So, I mean, again in that context I'd imagine the even rare(!) occurrence of an EV fire is a worthwhile discussion. People who care and still want an EV are free to say "yeah they should do something about that" and move on if they see fit, sure.

 

[TedEH]

Maybe I'm the one defensive about it, since I've gotten some unexpected push-back from people when I mentioned I wanted to buy an EV. Where I'm definitely onboard is that I feel like it would definitely fit Tesla's attitude to not bother being cooperative with safety efforts. I forget which article or video or whatever called out the idea that newer frames / EVs / etc. are different challenges for getting people out of a wreck - which would make me more comfortable getting any style of vehicle from a more traditional manufacturer than from a boutique EV-only kind of company.

It's like you have ICE, EV, and then companies like Tesla, Rivian, whatever else, that kinda live on their own little planet.

 

[TedEH]

Well, I did it - got an EV. Usual dealer nonsense aside, it was a pretty painless process. Now to find out if everything I've been saying is true or just talking points.

 

[jaxadam]

Well, I did it - got an EV. Usual dealer nonsense aside, it was a pretty painless process. Now to find out if everything I've been saying is true or just talking points.
View attachment 124030

Time to put some rims, ground effects, and a system up in that bitch playa!

 

[budda]

Well, I did it - got an EV. Usual dealer nonsense aside, it was a pretty painless process. Now to find out if everything I've been saying is true or just talking points.
View attachment 124030

Ioniq5?