EVs vs ICEs

[TedEH]

So does anyone here actually own an EV? My old Ford Escape is dying a slow and painful death - and given the government pushes and rebates etc. to try to get all new cars sold electric in future, it feels inevitable that I'll end up with one at one point or another. If I get another gas car now, it'll probably be the last one, so it feels like I should just get ahead of it and try an EV now.

I know they're more expensive, but frankly, everything is eye-watering-ly expensive. It seems like the alternative, for me at least, would be to get the cheapest base-model of whatever little car I can get my hands on, which isn't very exciting as far as something I'll have to live with for the next 5-10 years or more.

And I know the range thing scares some people, but range has been improving as long as you don't buy something more that 2 years old at this point. I can't imagine needing to drive 400km without stopping once.

And I know the charging infrastructure scares some people - but I've got access to public fast-charging down the road, and there's maps all over the place of similar chargers popping up all over the place. It seems like that stuff is coming together, as far as I can tell. Once again, I can't imagine needing to go 400k+ away from a place that can charge.

I test-drove a Bolt EV this week, and while it was a little cramped maybe (I didn't take time to adjust much), those things are fun to drive, especially if what you're used to is 15 year old beat up SUVs. I'm honestly tempted to go this route if I can find one for a reasonable price that I won't have to wait for years before delivery.

 

[tedtan]

Drive the areas you think you’ll drive and check on those charging stations to make sure that they actually exist, and, if they do exist, are in usable condition. Those are the current issues in the US, but Canada may be a different story.

 

[TedEH]

The one down the road definitely exists and seems to work, since I see people using them. There's supposedly a few more in walking distance, at a nearby college, at a gas station, etc. I'd have to go on a bit of an exploratory road trip to see the state of the other ones. The farthest out I ever really go is between Ottawa and Montreal which is about 200km / 2 hours without traffic. ChargeHub shows dozens of level 3 chargers between those routes, depending on which highway you take, and they're both large-ish cities, so that looks like it's not a huge concern.

It mostly feels like my biggest concern is going to be reliability, and what to do when something does break down. I'm sure my usual garage choices won't be able to do anything with an EV outside of maybe changing breaks and swapping tires. There's some dealers nearby equipped for EVs, so I guess that'd be where I'd have to go. In theory, an EV is supposed to mechanically "simpler", and have less to maintain, which would be great, because I'm lazy, but I feel like they haven't been around long enough to prove this out.

 

[LordCashew]

In theory, an EV is supposed to mechanically "simpler", and have less to maintain, which would be great, because I'm lazy, but I feel like they haven't been around long enough to prove this out.

It is mechanically simpler, at least as far as the drivetrain itself is concerned. But it sounds like a lot of mechanics, including at dealerships, are still trying to wrap their heads around the particularities of diagnosing actual malfunctions because of the peripheral tech involved.

My plan is to get a Japanese import with a manual transmission for my next car. That way I'll probably be able to keep it on the road by doing my own repairs until EVs are more of a known quantity or gas is full-on illegal.

 

[spudmunkey]

So does anyone here actually own an EV?

I've had a VW e-Golf since 2015.

One thing, I think, that a lot of people have trouble wrapping their head around is the difference in the psychology and habits around charging vs refueling. Refueling an ICE car is a specific event that you have to coordinate every time you need it. It takes time out of your week, and the vast majority of the time, you stay there until you are 100% full so you don't have to do it again for at least a few days.

Alternatively, if you have access to something like a home charger for your EV, or a charger in a place you frequent, "refueling" is barely any more inconvenient than parking. And also, if you do run low on range, you can just stop long enough to get enough charge to get home. It doesn't matter if a full charge takes 60 minutes, if you only need to get somewhere where you will be parked for at least that long anyway.

For example, I can leave my driveway every morning with a "topped off tank". If halfway through my day it looks like my drive home might be cutting it close, I'll just stop at Target or get lunch or something for 10-15 minutes. And I might only do this once a month. I don't NEED to hit 100%. But that's how most drivers view refueling, because it's super annoying to have to make special stops at gas stations to add $10 worth of fuel every day.

Alternatively, if at any of my stops in the day are near a charger, I could just plug in randomly throughout my day, because my parking spot has a charger. Now, charging at public chargers can cost more than charging at home (don't expect free public chargers to stay free forever), but those are basically just stop-gaps to get you home, anyway.

Now...to be clear, we've been able to make this car with 50 miles of hwy range work (it's "city" mileage is much better, almost double) for 8 years is because 1) we have a charger at home, and 2) we also have an ICE car for longer trips. That said, it's only ever used for long trips.

As far as maintenance, our 8-year old car has had 2 issues. 1) the locking latch for the charge port was acting up (but never fully failed), and 2) the 12v system had some sort of fault in about year 3, which was repaired under warranty. Then just tires, wipers and fluid, and one belt which was wearing and I think was about $280(mostly labor). Brakes are lasting half-forever since so much slowing-down and hald-back coasting can be done with regenerative braking.

If we were to go and buy one today, because we need a compact-length vehicle to fit our tiny driveway, it would be a Hyundai Nero. The Bolt is lower, which we'd prefer, but more cramped and uggo. VW never brought their newest e-golf or ID.3 to the US, so the EV Mini is the only other car availble in the US we could get, and its range is too short for a modern EV. It also only has 2 doors.

 

[tedtan]

California seems to have a lot more recharging stations than elsewhere in the US.

For example, here in Texas, Walmart is the main recharging station option. So instead of spending under 5 minutes to fill my 25 gallon gas tank, I would have to stop at Walmart (and I HATE Walmart) for 15+ minutes. And a 50 mile range won’t get me from one side of Houston to the other and back; I’d have to partially recharge just to get back home (I do realize some EV models have a better range than 50 miles). Driving to another city within Texas could be more hassle - Houston to Austin is ~165 miles, Houston to Dallas is ~240 miles, and Houston to El Paso is ~745 miles (just think of all those stops at Walmart ).

And that’s not taking into account the insurance cost, which is noticeably higher on EVs at this point because they are still considered to be disposable rather than repairable at, largely due to the cost of replacement batteries.

I like the concept of EVs, we just need to get batteries with longer ranges, much less expensive replacement batteries, and convenient recharging stations in place before they are a realistic option for more people in the US.

 

[spudmunkey]

California seems to have a lot more recharging stations than elsewhere in the US.

For example, here in Texas, Walmart is the main recharging station option. So instead of spending under 5 minutes to fill my 25 gallon gas tank, I would have to stop at Walmart (and I HATE Walmart) for 15+ minutes. And a 50 mile range won’t get me from one side of Houston to the other and back; I’d have to partially recharge just to get back home (I do realize some EV models have a better range than 50 miles). Driving to another city within Texas could be more hassle - Houston to Austin is ~165 miles, Houston to Dallas is ~240 miles, and Houston to El Paso is ~745 miles (just think of all those stops at Walmart ).

And that’s not taking into account the insurance cost, which is noticeably higher on EVs at this point because they are still considered to be disposable rather than repairable at, largely due to the cost of replacement batteries.

I like the concept of EVs, we just need to get batteries with longer ranges, much less expensive replacement batteries, and convenient recharging stations in place before they are a realistic option for more people in the US.

Oh, for sure, our charging network around here is already fairly beefy for the EV adoption we have currently, and it's visibly expanding rapidly. The Taco Bell near here just put in some solar-augmented chargers in their to-go pickup area. My local target has them, as does the library, multiple grocery stores (one of which is changing their ICE delivery truck fleet to EVs by the end of next year, and yesterday drove past a Burger King with "Open during EV Charger Construction" signs out front. Heck, even the Michael's craft store has one. In my little 5.5sq mile city, there are nearly 100 charging stations, not counting private ones for employees or ones at residences. My school and local hospital both have chargers, under their solar-panel-covered parking areas. I don't know if the solar supports the chargers at all, though, like the Taco Bell ones...

As far as insurance, my 2015 grey Mazda 3 4-door Hatchback's insurance is identical to our 2015 grey VW e-Golf 4-door hatchback's insurance. Perhaps this varies by region? The ICE's Mazda's registration costs more, interestingly, due to state incentives.

Agreed on all of the last points, though. There seems to be a new "new battery chemistry breakthrough" every week, but they are of course slow to break through the "production at scale" barrier. There have been massive changes though, over even just the past couple of years. For example 50% of Tesla's current battery production is now cobalt-free...something that seemed nearly impossible just a few years ago...but EV prices still need to come down to ICE parity...which also may very well happen in part from ICE cars getting more expensive as production efficiencies come down with reduced total units produced. The cheapest mid-sized family vehicle, representing the class that has been the best-selling category (aside from pickup trucks) for decades (Ford Taurus, Camry, Accord, etc and then the crossovers based on them) basically start at $45K which is way too high. There are cheaper cars, but they are all econo-boxes like the Kia Niro, Hyundai Kona, Chevy Bolt, etc.

I think 200 miles hwy* (which is most EVs now except for half-asssed attempts like the Mazda MX-30) is genuinely adequate for at least 95% of the population, and an optional "long range" version with 250-300 covering another 3-4%. Less than 2% of people drive more than 120 miles per day...and half of those would be serviced by a 200 miles range.

Now, are there exceptions? Absolutely, as pro-EV as I am, I'm not delusional. Just as a sedan won't suit everyone, and neither would a motorcycle or a minivan. But if the primary goal of electrification is a reduction in their carbon pollution into the atmosphere as well as energy independence from both a economy and national security perspective, I'm of the opinion that we'll need to figure out how to work around those use cases when we get closer, but need to march forward with progress for what would serve the 99.5%. I'm optimistic that both the battery technology and production processes will improve dramatically over the next few years.

California has a 2035 deadline for ICE sales. Do I think this is realistic? No. But I do think it was necessary to put something down on paper, to put a foot on the "gas" (as it were) for advancement. I also assume, and have from the moment it was announced, that there would be progress metrics that would need to be met to make this deadline, and those metrics will be watched ana anylized by experts, investors, and policymakers to figure out if, say, around 2030, if we need to push that 2035 date out a couple of years...and I fully expect that to be the case.

*fun anecdote: driving from San Francisco to my home a few months ago, I ran an experiment. I drove as carefully as I safely could, staying off highways. I drove at speeds I normally would, and on this route my top speeds were about 45. I turned on "eco+" mode which reduces throttle response, top speed, and limits the HVAC output, and put the regen braking in the most-aggressive mode (basically one-pedal driving). The drive was just under 14 miles. When I got home (which is at a lower elevation than the part of SF I started in, so it was technically "downhill"), my car's estimated remaining range went UP by 1 mile. (I'll note that my car's brain isn't smart enough to dynamically adjust the range to your driving style...it's simply based on the current charge level, and its simple consumption equation). Not an activity I would do very often, because hypermiling is exhausting mentally, but it was pretty fun to gamify range...once. 😅

 

[c7spheres]

I came to find out what an ICE speaker was and how it compared to Ev's.

 

[TedEH]

it would be a Hyundai Nero

I've been keeping my eyes out for one, but I haven't been able to find one that I can actually buy or test drive right now.

The Bolt is lower, which we'd prefer, but more cramped and uggo

I wasn't sure if the Bolt was actually cramped feeling or if I had just not figured out how to adjust everything.

I tried a 2020 Leaf today and it was..... ok? The Bolt seemed to have so much more oomph. The Leaf seemed to sit lower, wasn't as fun to drive, I know the battery doesn't last as long, the charge connector isn't the same standard as what seems to be most common - and the windshield is so sloped that it almost had a weird lens effect, like I was looking through a pair of glasses. Visibility wasn't great. I kinda just didn't like it. Also, this one hadn't been cleaned much, both inside the car and under the hood - it had grime everywhere, corrosion on the battery terminals, etc. No go. BUT - the seats were comfortable.

The shortest estimate I've gotten for possible delivery of a new vehicle was about 4 months, but some estimates have been 12+ months, and no opportunity to test drive before then. I don't think I can wait that long before my current car bites it. But there's a used Bolt I tried - it's clean, it's available, it has enough range to not be worried about it, it had the battery recall done already, and it's "close to affordable" but maybe I can manage to negotiate down to something more reasonable.

 

[spudmunkey]

IThe shortest estimate I've gotten for possible delivery of a new vehicle was about 4 months, but some estimates have been 12+ months

I saw a Toyota dealer list a few months ago. I think the Sienna was over 5 years.

 

[TedEH]

Oof. I do know the estimates really depend on the area though. The Toyota guy over here was saying that they might get something in 4 months while the same car would take a year and a half just at the other end of the city, or vice-versa.

 

[tedtan]

Oh, for sure, our charging network around here is already fairly beefy for the EV adoption we have currently, and it's visibly expanding rapidly. The Taco Bell near here just put in some solar-augmented chargers in their to-go pickup area. My local target has them, as does the library, multiple grocery stores (one of which is changing their ICE delivery truck fleet to EVs by the end of next year, and yesterday drove past a Burger King with "Open during EV Charger Construction" signs out front. Heck, even the Michael's craft store has one. In my little 5.5sq mile city, there are nearly 100 charging stations, not counting private ones for employees or ones at residences. My school and local hospital both have chargers, under their solar-panel-covered parking areas. I don't know if the solar supports the chargers at all, though, like the Taco Bell ones...

As far as insurance, my 2015 grey Mazda 3 4-door Hatchback's insurance is identical to our 2015 grey VW e-Golf 4-door hatchback's insurance. Perhaps this varies by region? The ICE's Mazda's registration costs more, interestingly, due to state incentives.

Agreed on all of the last points, though. There seems to be a new "new battery chemistry breakthrough" every week, but they are of course slow to break through the "production at scale" barrier. There have been massive changes though, over even just the past couple of years. For example 50% of Tesla's current battery production is now cobalt-free...something that seemed nearly impossible just a few years ago...but EV prices still need to come down to ICE parity...which also may very well happen in part from ICE cars getting more expensive as production efficiencies come down with reduced total units produced. The cheapest mid-sized family vehicle, representing the class that has been the best-selling category (aside from pickup trucks) for decades (Ford Taurus, Camry, Accord, etc and then the crossovers based on them) basically start at $45K which is way too high. There are cheaper cars, but they are all econo-boxes like the Kia Niro, Hyundai Kona, Chevy Bolt, etc.

I think 200 miles hwy* (which is most EVs now except for half-asssed attempts like the Mazda MX-30) is genuinely adequate for at least 95% of the population, and an optional "long range" version with 250-300 covering another 3-4%. Less than 2% of people drive more than 120 miles per day...and half of those would be serviced by a 200 miles range.

Now, are there exceptions? Absolutely, as pro-EV as I am, I'm not delusional. Just as a sedan won't suit everyone, and neither would a motorcycle or a minivan. But if the primary goal of electrification is a reduction in their carbon pollution into the atmosphere as well as energy independence from both a economy and national security perspective, I'm of the opinion that we'll need to figure out how to work around those use cases when we get closer, but need to march forward with progress for what would serve the 99.5%. I'm optimistic that both the battery technology and production processes will improve dramatically over the next few years.

California has a 2035 deadline for ICE sales. Do I think this is realistic? No. But I do think it was necessary to put something down on paper, to put a foot on the "gas" (as it were) for advancement. I also assume, and have from the moment it was announced, that there would be progress metrics that would need to be met to make this deadline, and those metrics will be watched ana anylized by experts, investors, and policymakers to figure out if, say, around 2030, if we need to push that 2035 date out a couple of years...and I fully expect that to be the case.

*fun anecdote: driving from San Francisco to my home a few months ago, I ran an experiment. I drove as carefully as I safely could, staying off highways. I drove at speeds I normally would, and on this route my top speeds were about 45. I turned on "eco+" mode which reduces throttle response, top speed, and limits the HVAC output, and put the regen braking in the most-aggressive mode (basically one-pedal driving). The drive was just under 14 miles. When I got home (which is at a lower elevation than the part of SF I started in, so it was technically "downhill"), my car's estimated remaining range went UP by 1 mile. (I'll note that my car's brain isn't smart enough to dynamically adjust the range to your driving style...it's simply based on the current charge level, and its simple consumption equation). Not an activity I would do very often, because hypermiling is exhausting mentally, but it was pretty fun to gamify range...once. 😅

Yeah, California is ahead of the rest of the country, but we’ll get there, we’ll just have some growing pains along the way.

 

[TedEH]

Do car enthusiasts also call it "GAS"? Seems fitting. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I keep trying to look up reasons why it would be a bad idea to buy the Bolt I tried the other day (other than being a bit pricey) and the best I can come up with is that the charger isn't as fast as some cars, and cold = less range.

I think I'm going to have to make up my mind very shortly - while I was out test-driving stuff yesterday, one of the dealerships asked if they could "evaluate my trade-in", so I said "lol if you want to". They came back with an offer of the $300 or so they'd get to resell it to the scrap yard / U-pull place, and a note saying "whatever you do, don't put more money into keeping this thing alive".

 

[Crungy]

I saw a Toyota dealer list a few months ago. I think the Sienna was over 5 years.

That blows my mind on the Sienna and even the wait on a gas Camry... I'm not up on current affairs of automotive manufacturing but it seems odd things are still that far behind.

 

[StevenC]

California seems to have a lot more recharging stations than elsewhere in the US.

For example, here in Texas, Walmart is the main recharging station option. So instead of spending under 5 minutes to fill my 25 gallon gas tank, I would have to stop at Walmart (and I HATE Walmart) for 15+ minutes. And a 50 mile range won’t get me from one side of Houston to the other and back; I’d have to partially recharge just to get back home (I do realize some EV models have a better range than 50 miles). Driving to another city within Texas could be more hassle - Houston to Austin is ~165 miles, Houston to Dallas is ~240 miles, and Houston to El Paso is ~745 miles (just think of all those stops at Walmart ).

And that’s not taking into account the insurance cost, which is noticeably higher on EVs at this point because they are still considered to be disposable rather than repairable at, largely due to the cost of replacement batteries.

I like the concept of EVs, we just need to get batteries with longer ranges, much less expensive replacement batteries, and convenient recharging stations in place before they are a realistic option for more people in the US.

You liv in Texas right? my impression of Texas is that it's only upside is that everyone gets a big house with a garage. And if you have access to a garage, why would you ever charge your car at Walmart when you can charge it at home each night?

The second thing is how often does anyone need to drive across Texas? And how often is driving the best way to complete that journey?

The truth is plenty of people can have an EV right now without changing their lives much at all.

 

[tedtan]

You liv in Texas right? my impression of Texas is that it's only upside is that everyone gets a big house with a garage. And if you have access to a garage, why would you ever charge your car at Walmart when you can charge it at home each night?

We have people moving here from many parts of the US, and houses with garages are available elsewhere, too, so I would assume that it is more than just a big house with a garage that is bringing them here.

But seriously, yes, we can have an electrician come out and install a charging station, but that’s another $500 to $1,000 dollars as most houses here will run on 110 volt and won’t have spare 220 volt available to the average person (we do have 220 volt for washing machines and electric stove/oven ranges, but not readily accessible).

The second thing is how often does anyone need to drive across Texas? And how often is driving the best way to complete that journey?

That really depends on the individual. I have family in several different cities, which isn’t uncommon here, and many people have family in border towns and Mexico that they go see. And some people drive for work, though that is less common.

And while the north eastern part of the US (New York, Boston, Philadelphia, DC, Jersey, Connecticut, etc.) has commuter trains and subways, those don’t exist here, so the options are to drive or to fly. And we’ve had A LOT of problems with flights in the US lately. So add that to the expense and hassle of flying, combined with the luggage limits and taking a plane is not always an option.

And while driving that far isn’t an every day occurrence, it’s not uncommon for someone to live in a suburb and commute into Houston proper, so the 50 mile freeway range spudmonkey mentioned wouldn’t work for a full day’s commute; recharging along the way would be necessary (and, as mentioned previously, I do realize that some models offer a greater range than 50 miles on a single charge).

The truth is plenty of people can have an EV right now without changing their lives much at all.

Yeah, people who live in the city and don’t ever really leave won’t have any issues at this point. People like my step dad that travel back and forth between Houston and Austin three-plus times per month may find it a bit more difficult to move to an EV at this point (after multiple Teslas over the years, my step dad finally went back to an ICE with his last car because having to stop at Walmart to charge up sucks ass ).

 

[StevenC]

We have people moving here from many parts of the US, and houses with garages are available elsewhere, too, so I would assume that it is more than just a big house with a garage that is bringing them here.

But seriously, yes, we can have an electrician come out and install a charging station, but that’s another $500 to $1,000 dollars as most houses here will run on 110 volt and won’t have spare 220 volt available to the average person (we do have 220 volt for washing machines and electric stove/oven ranges, but not readily accessible).



That really depends on the individual. I have family in several different cities, which isn’t uncommon here, and many people have family in border towns and Mexico that they go see. And some people drive for work, though that is less common.

And while the north eastern part of the US (New York, Boston, Philadelphia, DC, Jersey, Connecticut, etc.) has commuter trains and subways, those don’t exist here, so the options are to drive or to fly. And we’ve had A LOT of problems with flights in the US lately. So add that to the expense and hassle of flying, combined with the luggage limits and taking a plane is not always an option.

And while driving that far isn’t an every day occurrence, it’s not uncommon for someone to live in a suburb and commute into Houston proper, so the 50 mile freeway range spudmonkey mentioned wouldn’t work for a full day’s commute; recharging along the way would be necessary (and, as mentioned previously, I do realize that some models offer a greater range than 50 miles on a single charge).



Yeah, people who live in the city and don’t ever really leave won’t have any issues at this point. People like my step dad that travel back and forth between Houston and Austin three-plus times per month may find it a bit more difficult to move to an EV at this point (after multiple Teslas over the years, my step dad finally went back to an ICE with his last car because having to stop at Walmart to charge up sucks ass ).

You can just plug it into a wall outlet and you will be topped up every morning.

 

[tedtan]

I didn’t realize they could charge from 110v. That makes it more convenient and less expensive for those that can charge overnight.

 

[technomancer]

I didn’t realize they could charge from 110v. That makes it more convenient and less expensive for those that can charge overnight.

Also keep in mind Spudmunkey's car is ancient in terms of EV tech... average range on new EVs is 200 miles with a lot being higher than that. So driving across state may be inconvenient, but commuting shouldn't be a huge deal.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

I'd argue that, in most cases, those occasional and exceptional jaunts would be better served by a rental.