EVs vs ICEs

[Drew]

Never understood why in the US, there such aversion to CNG. It is cheaper than gasoline, and much cleaner burning. In countries like Argentina, it is available at every gas station, and gasoline cars can be converted to take a CNG tank.

I think PART of it has to be as simple as the fact that, with monthly inflation in Argentina running higher than annual inflation in US, and with the Argentinian annual rate hovering around 100%, we're probably not in any special hurry to turn to them for economic ideas.

 

[Riff the Road Dog]

The US actually does have (apparently little known) tax incentives for conversion to NG for vehicle fuel.There are several public transportation systems in the US that have converted their fleets. Some states like UT are incentivizing the use for personal vehicles. It costs half what gas costs and is 90% less polluting. Of course, NG production itself is rather well known for its methane pollution problem, and it costs about $8k to convert a car as well as takes up a lot of space, like almost the whole trunk, and it is another fossil fuel.

It is pretty common in other countries I've lived in and visited in Asia and Europe as well as S America. In Korea many if not most taxis and public systems use converted vehicles made by the same manufacturers folks in the US buy from.

 

[soliloquy]

I dont really have much of an opinion on EVs, but here in Ontario, Teslas are really popular. Just on my street alone, it has 21 houses, and 4 of them have teslas. 1 of the house holds has 2 teslas.

I also know that many of my neighbors aren't happy with their Teslas. Not because they dont function properly. But because they are being backed by Musk, and seems not too many people want to support him any longer. Yet other vehicles are no one near the race of EVs as Tesla is...sadly.

Id love to get a mini, or a jeep that is EV. But only when its more feasible to use them. As things stand, its not the greatest options as they are super expensive for what they are currently. Though from an environmental perspective, I do wish they were better and more readily available

 

[CanserDYI]

Teslas are built like shit. Just reallllly shitty materials and cut so many corners. There is a huge reason they make 3-5x the profit per car than the big 3 American manufacturers.

 

[MASS DEFECT]

Teslas are built like shit. Just reallllly shitty materials and cut so many corners. There is a huge reason they make 3-5x the profit per car than the big 3 American manufacturers.

I can confirm this. I worked at the assembly line down here in Fremont for 3 mos. Apart from being a huge HR and safety nightmare, the materials, door linings, and fabrics are reallllly cheap. Mazda has better materials. Hell, Toyotas even have better seats than the stiff buckets on these 70k EVs.

And that sparse "modern" cabin and dashboard "design" is just a ploy to cheap out.

The best EVs now come from Audi, BMW, and Benz. You get the EV shit and you still retain that infamous Teutonic driving dynamics because they know how to build cars.

 

[bostjan]

The US actually does have (apparently little known) tax incentives for conversion to NG for vehicle fuel.There are several public transportation systems in the US that have converted their fleets. Some states like UT are incentivizing the use for personal vehicles. It costs half what gas costs and is 90% less polluting. Of course, NG production itself is rather well known for its methane pollution problem, and it costs about $8k to convert a car as well as takes up a lot of space, like almost the whole trunk, and it is another fossil fuel.

It is pretty common in other countries I've lived in and visited in Asia and Europe as well as S America. In Korea many if not most taxis and public systems use converted vehicles made by the same manufacturers folks in the US buy from.

What we do have is a very powerful oil lobby.

You could build engines to run off of anything, but performance would be dependent on the energy provided by the fuel. Natural gas is pretty energy dense, so it's up there on the list of potentials. But also the low price of NG might be an anomaly right now.

But for sure for things like public transit busses, running them off of diesel fuel in this day and age seems dumb. The trouble is that busses last a long time, so any changes would take forever to implement.

I can confirm this. I worked at the assembly line down here in Fremont for 3 mos. Apart from being a huge HR and safety nightmare, the materials, door linings, and fabrics are reallllly cheap. Mazda has better materials. Hell, Toyotas even have better seats than the stiff buckets on these 70k EVs.

And that sparse "modern" cabin and dashboard "design" is just a ploy to cheap out.

The best EVs now come from Audi, BMW, and Benz. You get the EV shit and you still retain that infamous Teutonic driving dynamics because they know how to build cars.

Honestly, though, the biggest part of the equation is how well the batteries will hold up. If the batteries are somehow better than what the competitors offer, then... well, the problem, though, is that nobody will know for the next couple years.

 

[BornToLooze]

Never understood why in the US, there such aversion to CNG. It is cheaper than gasoline, and much cleaner burning. In countries like Argentina, it is available at every gas station, and gasoline cars can be converted to take a CNG tank.

The same reason there is an aversion to diesel. The only reason people hate it is the waste is actually visible/dipshits rolling coal. I mean from what I've read, Cummins working on the technology to make it where the stuff coming out the exhaust pipe is cleaner than the air going into the engine, with no emission equipment. I mean, fuel would be cheaper if it wasn't for the government taxing the ever living hell out of it, cleaner than a comparable gas engine, better fuel mileage, and power, engines last longer...where is the downside towards moving to diesel?

Other than VW "cheated" on some emission tests?

I mean name one car guy that hasn't put cats back on their car to go get an emissions inspections.

 

[Randy]

Electric vehicle drivers get candid about charging: 'Logistical nightmare'

Charging an electric vehicle on the go is neither easy nor fast.

abcnews.go.com

 

[jaxadam]

EVs Not As Sustainable As Advertised

The biggest problem is the high-price battery.

www.ien.com

 

[ShredmasterD]

the grid in many parts of the country cant handle the added load. california can't even keep up with air conditioners every summer and has rolling blackouts not to mention fires from burning up power lines..

i welcome reliable, economic, convenient and environmentally sound EV's. we are not there yet. this push is central planning and not market driven.

 

[iamaom]

i welcome reliable, economic, convenient and environmentally sound EV's. we are not there yet. this push is central planning and not market driven.

The hard truth is the era of personal vehicles, especially ICE, for everyday travel needs to come to and end in favor or less car oriented infrastructure, and the free market will not react quickly enough to adjust for the climate and economic challenges in the near future. The free market demonstrated it only resolves problems with wealth transfers from poor to rich in times of need, be it money, stocks, or toilet paper.

 

[ShredmasterD]

The hard truth is the era of personal vehicles, especially ICE, for everyday travel needs to come to and end in favor or less car oriented infrastructure, and the free market will not react quickly enough to adjust for the climate and economic challenges in the near future. The free market demonstrated it only resolves problems with wealth transfers from poor to rich in times of need, be it money, stocks, or toilet paper.

false. but you go on believing that. Karl happy.

 

[KnightBrolaire]

EVS are awesome from a pure torque/horsepower situation, as they're wayyyy more efficient than an ICE. My cousin has a Tesla Model S Plaid and that thing is fun as hell to drive. It's not as nimble as my mom's Mercedes SLK but it whoops its ass in straightaways.
I honestly think EV trucks are going to be a bigger hit in the future, as they'll benefit immensely from the increased efficiency/torque (and likely increased towing capacity).

The batteries are the main limiting factor overall from what I've read.
There are multiple companies working on batteries utilizing non rare earth metals (or significantly less), quicker charge times, lighter weight, less incidence of fires, and greater overall efficiency. Using carbon anodes/cathodes with solid state electrolytes seems to be where batteries are going in the future.

Designing better batteries for electric vehicles

Researchers are working to adapt the standard lithium-ion battery to make safer, smaller, and lighter versions. An MIT-led study describes an approach that can help researchers consider what materials may work best in their solid-state batteries, while also considering how those materials could...

news.mit.edu

Solid State Battery Tech For EV Cars: Challenges Lie Ahead

What you need to know about the state of solid state.

www.motortrend.com

Here in the midwest there are very few dedicated chargers, so good luck charging your vehicle anywhere but your house. The west coast is far better about putting them all over the place from what I've seen. I drove down the whole Pacific Coast highway a few years ago and it was inundated with chargers and EVs. They were noticeably less common in UT, CO, NE and other western states though.

I think the biggest issue with EV adoption in this country is we're still using coal plants in some places to generate electricity, so while consumers may be reducing their car's carbon footprint, their overall footprint isn't really changing for the better.

Thinking you'll save $ by buying any new car is an asinine proposition given that they're all depreciating assets.

I don't think EVs are quite ready for full mainstream adoption tbh.

 

[Drew]

the grid in many parts of the country cant handle the added load. california can't even keep up with air conditioners every summer and has rolling blackouts not to mention fires from burning up power lines..

i welcome reliable, economic, convenient and environmentally sound EV's. we are not there yet. this push is central planning and not market driven.

I'd actually say it's the reverse. There's a pretty strong argument to be made that the reason America became so car-centric and never developed the sort of scaled, efficient, and functional public rail infrastructure so common in Europe was that Eisenhower was a former general who had earned his stars in a massive land war, and when given the choice between connecting cities with interstate highways, or with rail lines, he figured highways would be a lot harder to disrupt by bombing and in a pinch could be used as runways. Once the decision was made to build interstate highways, it became a matter of pubic good and political priority to make sure Americans were able to get cars, to use them, and then second-order effects like the rise of the suburbs and commuting to work by car further entrenched cars into American life.

None of this was market driven. It was a direct result of centralized decision making.

 

[c7spheres]

Stop making EV's and start making more ICE retrofit kits to run cars on water. Why not? Money and power is my guess If we all went back to horses that'd be worse than cows pooh for the environment if that's really a thing. How about people just plant more trees? Those take water too. Better start banning trees and plants. They take way more water than humans. They're evil. lol.

 

[Naxxpipe]

Eh, the US is just lagging behind the EU in legislation.

There is a global push towards EV/H2 ICE/Whatever that is not good ol' HC (hydrocarbon) ICE. Yes, there will be issues with a lot of these technologies, but lets not pretend like HC ICE were unproblematic for the first years during their industrialization. They basically have 100 years head start on EVs in that regard (hyperbolic, I know).

But as @iamaom here said, the push towards zero emission is all for show unless we cut out consumption, of everything. So we are probably all fucked, as consumerism is the main driving force in the majority of the world.

For battery designs, every OEM is scrambling to try to develop high-energy-density, high-efficiency Rare-Earth Metal free batteries, but we are making baby steps in that regard, and this has been studied in academia for more than a decade without any market-changing progress. So then we look towards H2 ICE, which may be an intermediate option for manufacturers to be able to sell vehicles for every application regardless of an HC ICE ban, but its not a be-all-end-all environmental friendly solution as some tout it, and it may require exotic materials in other parts of the ICE.

 

[Drew]

I mean, if we want to cut consumption of all forms of fossil fuels, one of these is pretty hard to beat - this is my main commuter:

(not my exact bike, but I do own this model)

 

[jaxadam]

I would absolutely take one of these:

 

[Drew]

Cardio workout probably ins't as good.

 

[T_Gobbs]

Lithium mining is dirty as shit. Tires shed nano particles everywhere. Walk until the neighbors call the cops on you.