Anyone watching the big game tonight?

[tedtan]

I think my disagreement here comes down to two fairly simple observations.

"Terrorism" is almost entirely a matter of perspective. If the destruction of personal property is terrorism, then the Boston Tea Party was a terrorist act. The battle of Lexington and Concord certainly was an act of terrorism, we weren't even civil about it, we got behind stone walls and shot at redcoats with the element of surprise. Yet I don't think too many people would call the American Revolution an act of terrorism against the British crown. The victors write history... but also what you're fighting for matters.

And maybe your experience in Japan has colored your world view, but what you call "entitlement" and "asking for trouble" is a right enshrined in the US Constitution. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." That's pretty categorical. And, while the intersection between constitutional rights and visa renewal does get a little more grey, in no instances does that empower the government to seize someone in the US on a student visa and arrest them and revoke their visa, without going through due process, which is a violation of the 4th and 5th amendments.

And yet the government is doing just that with seeming impunity (or, at the least, no consequences to date).

 

[Drew]

I've got to imagine somewhere in the justification they're going to be arguing the Constitution and Bill of Rights don't apply to non citizens?

The Supreme Court historically has disagreed with that argument. And it's not like the Supreme Court hasn't ever reversed historical precedent... But they also haven't really been very supportive of Trump so far. I'd expect a 7-2 decision against him, with Thomas and Alito dissenting.

 

[Drew]

And yet the government is doing just that with seeming impunity (or, at the least, no consequences to date).

Yeah, that's the crux of the problem - the administration can just do shit, the courts have to wait for the cases to be filed, argued, decided, and appealed, and then have to try to undo what the administration has done. It's going to be a long process.

 

[ElysianGuitars]

I've got to imagine somewhere in the justification they're going to be arguing the Constitution and Bill of Rights don't apply to non citizens?

Gonna be tough to do since that's nowhere to be found in the Constitution or Bill of Rights

 

[MetalDestroyer]

Yeah, that's the crux of the problem - the administration can just do shit, the courts have to wait for the cases to be filed, argued, decided, and appealed, and then have to try to undo what the administration has done. It's going to be a long process.

And then in the end it won't matter at all because they aren't following court orders, decisions, laws etc

 

[Drew]

And then in the end it won't matter at all because they aren't following court orders, decisions, laws etc

Eh, that's why I think things like the public backlash over this stupid Signal clusterfuck, and the growing protesting around extrajudicial deportations, will start to matter. If the only check against Trump is political, then when Fox News hosts start to condemn his administration, political solutions are back on the table.

 

[Drew]

Fun story, by the way - I learned yesterday that someone I know, knew Hegseth in college. They weren't friends but had overlapping circles and her roommate ended up marrying his. Evidently they used to get into shouting matches about the Iraq war in taprooms in college.

I love this for two reasons - one, that this anecdote tells you everything we now know about Hegseth - he likes to drink, finds women triggering, has a temper, and no sense of propriety as to where to have a conversation. And, two, that honestly I kind of thought he was a cartoon, before getting objective confirmation that he really is a real person. I mean, he has a crusades-themed tattoo, for christ's sake.

 

[DarkstarII]

Gonna be tough to do since that's nowhere to be found in the Constitution or Bill of Rights

That's because it isn't in there, and if you are here, in America, as a non-citizen, OUR rights are not YOUR rights. Hence the deportations and 'disappearances.'

 

[profwoot]

That's because it isn't in there, and if you are here, in America, as a non-citizen, OUR rights are not YOUR rights. Hence the deportations and 'disappearances.'

No. When the constitution means citizens, it says citizens. In most cases, rights are given to everyone, not just citizens. And the supreme court has repeatedly upheld that.

 

[MetalDestroyer]

step 1: come to US legally, with papers proving it
step 2: follow all laws
step 3: get abducted off the street and sent to a concentration camp

Even if this somehow does not escalate, this will ruin our economy as no foreign workers, tourists, or students will feel safe entering our country.

 

[HeHasTheJazzHands]

Even if this somehow does not escalate, this will ruin our economy as no foreign workers, tourists, or students will feel safe entering our country.

It's already gotten to the point where a lot of them are going to Canada instead.

 

[ElysianGuitars]

That's because it isn't in there, and if you are here, in America, as a non-citizen, OUR rights are not YOUR rights. Hence the deportations and 'disappearances.'

Non citizens have our rights, because the constitution isn't for just citizens. This has been ruled upon over and over, Google is free to use.

Is your entire world view built on ignorance? Because it sure sounds like it.

 

[HeHasTheJazzHands]

mfs be like "i'm here to bring a conservative mindset to stop things from being an echo chamber" and end up saying some of the dumbest, inaccurate, most heinous shit you can say.

 

[ElysianGuitars]

step 1: come to US legally, with papers proving it
step 2: follow all laws
step 3: get abducted off the street and sent to a concentration camp

Even if this somehow does not escalate, this will ruin our economy as no foreign workers, tourists, or students will feel safe entering our country.

America first is absolutely and indisputably America last.

 

[wiretap]

step 1: come to US legally, with papers proving it
step 2: follow all laws
step 3: get abducted off the street and sent to a concentration camp

Even if this somehow does not escalate, this will ruin our economy as no foreign workers, tourists, or students will feel safe entering our country.

But some dude in who-gives-a-shit middle America where no one would ever wanna go says there’s no way those things could be fundamental to the economy!

 

[ElysianGuitars]

Sending her to her death.

 

[PuckishGuitar]

Non citizens have our rights, because the constitution isn't for just citizens. This has been ruled upon over and over, Google is free to use.

Is your entire world view built on ignorance? Because it sure sounds like it.

Read this elsewhere, but basically if due process is being denied to non-citizens, then it's denied also to citizens. All the government has to do is say you're not a citizen, and wait for it... you now have no right to due process to challenge it.

 

[Randy]

Read this elsewhere, but basically if due process is being denied to non-citizens, then it's denied also to citizens. All the government has to do is say you're not a citizen, and wait for it... you now have no right to due process to challenge it.

Much of the seeds to this argument were planted in the Bush era "enemy combatant" designation which was used to justify sending people to Gitmo for 1.) imprisonment without a day in court, indefinitely 2.) torture

Again, the language Trump is invoking and who he's targeting here is not arbitrary or without meaning and consequence.

 

[Randy]

Musk:

"They’re being fed propaganda by the far-left, and they believe it. It’s really unfortunate. The real problem is not, like, you know, the crazy guy that firebombs a Tesla dealership. It’s the people pushing the propaganda that caused that guy to do it. Those are the real villains here, and we’re going to go after them. And the president has made it clear we’re going to go after them. The ones providing the money, the ones pushing the lies and propaganda, we’re going after them."

 

[narad]

I think my disagreement here comes down to two fairly simple observations.

"Terrorism" is almost entirely a matter of perspective. If the destruction of personal property is terrorism, then the Boston Tea Party was a terrorist act. The battle of Lexington and Concord certainly was an act of terrorism, we weren't even civil about it, we got behind stone walls and shot at redcoats with the element of surprise. Yet I don't think too many people would call the American Revolution an act of terrorism against the British crown. The victors write history... but also what you're fighting for matters.

Eh, I would absolutely call the Boston Tea Party an act of terrorism. When you're willing to take things to the point of full revolution, the semantics of what is/isn't terrorism became pointless, but they're still terrorism.

EDIT: Actually I now that I'm waking up and thinking about it more, I guess the BTP is probably not intending to instill fear, but I'm sure we could point to lots of historical events that do, and that we don't think of as terrorism as they are stepping stones to some larger conflict.

And maybe your experience in Japan has colored your world view, but what you call "entitlement" and "asking for trouble" is a right enshrined in the US Constitution.

It's enshrined in ours, too. That's kind of my point. Legally I should be able to just say whatever I want here. Prudently, I don't, because I'm only opening myself up to terrible outcomes in the rare case that the government has to assess me. That's what I mean by American entitlement: it's not that these aren't the principles of our countries -- they are -- but in real life there's a lot of wiggle room for things to go better or worse based on how much of an agitator you are, and I don't need that smoke.

And, while the intersection between constitutional rights and visa renewal does get a little more grey, in no instances does that empower the government to seize someone in the US on a student visa and arrest them and revoke their visa, without going through due process, which is a violation of the 4th and 5th amendments.

Exactly why I think people should focus on what part of this overall process actually is the problem. The problem isn't what is/isn't terrorism, and it's not important when the government is ignoring the constitution and even recent rulings from the judiciary specifically prohibiting them from doing it. Don't miss the forest for the trees.