"Amp in the room" tone doesn't matter. Or does it?

[wheresthefbomb]

Well.... it matters if you're in the room.

so you’re telling me solo guy dials in his rig to sound great from anywhere in the room vs where he normally stands in front of it and nowhere else? Everyone dials in their in the room sound to only sound good directly in front.

I play solo with a fat stereo rig, whenever I have the opportunity I walk around the room with a riff on loop and make sure shit sounds right. I would say that's definitely not the typical use case, though, and being a solo act that relies heavily on texture, good (ie not unpleasant) tone is a much more important element of the overall product.

I'll say I cared a lot less when I was in a band, I'd adjust the presence and volume based on the venue but otherwise I dialed it basically as you describe and trusted the sound guy to do his job and if it was unpleasant to behold, well that's just rock and roll baby.

At this point, can we take everyone's gear away, leave them with a Line 6 Spider, a Squier, and worn out pick and say, "just play the fucking thing?"

Make it a Peavey Bandit and I'll be just fine.

 

[tedtan]

It seems the new goal is who can make a video that turns forums into FB/blabbermouth comment sections.

Yeah, it gets more eyeballs and more of that sweet, sweet ad revenue.

 

[BillK]

This person has to be trolling to not know that; it's been extremely well documented, especially in Metallica's history.

Yeah and I hope most of us, heard the remastered version on you tube, appreciating Jason's playing...

 

[sylcfh]

Did he cover the opposite end? Recorded tones are often artificial as well. A lot of post EQ, console magic, blended mics, or sometimes multiple amps blended with totally unusable settings individually that only serve to complement each other in the mix, etc, you get the point.

 

[MAJ Meadows SF]

In the room tone is tops for me, and I'd rather do my best to capture that than work through IRs, re-amping, or full digital signals. That stuff is super useful, and I enjoy it for what it is, but it doesn't replicate moving air and being blasted by a 4x12 in person. Even going to shows, I want to stand where I can get the benefit of the PA sound as well as the cabs. I've experienced both live amp and digital live, and for me there is a big difference. I've always used room mics and want to know what the in room, in person tone is like. Working with cabs and speaker combos is more rewarding than swapping amps. The type of recording method like tape tracking makes a big difference to me as well. Now, I'm admitting I prefer a more organic, in person tone than cleaner production. So I know the benefit of both and depends on the purpose. Same with in room tones vs recording and doing surgery in mixing/mastering. I dunno, ranting, but that's what inspires me.

 

[Danukenator]

The key point is that pickups, wood, strings, the guitar, the amp, the cables are meaningless. Literally all sounds come from the fingers.

When I play air guitar, I sound bad-ass brother.

 

[DECEMBER]

The way an amp sounds thru a room mic sounds very different from what the amp sounds like to our ears.
I record two 1x12 combos in stereo with 2 mics on each, and one room mic, about 18" from the point between the two amps. The sound from that mic on its own isn't pleasing. I mix it in -13dB lower than the other mics, just to add a very subtle amount of that to the overall sound of the 5 mics.

 

[Ancestor]

I watched this video and thought it was interesting. He makes a lot of good points, however I have to disagree with his broad statement that amp in the room tones "don't matter."



While I understand his point, it should be mentioned that while the tone in the room doesn't matter to him, it could very well matter to you. Or to someone else. In fact it could be of much greater importance than recorded tones depending on the person and context.

He says the sound in the room "isn't what we hear and isn't what we've ever heard." Not true. If you've ever plugged into a real amp and cab/speaker, or even been in the room where someone else did so, then you've heard an amp in the room. And if that tone inspired you, then it inspired you. The first time I heard a Dual Rectifier live was in a movie theater on an Air Force base where a band was practicing. It sounded amazing and I immediately wanted one of those amps--the tone was inspiring.

Recorded sounds are certainly important to most if not all people, but aren't the only important sounds. Plenty of people don't record. They might be playing alone in their house, with friends in a garage, in a small bar, etc. And while the tones they're using may not exactly replicate some recorded tones they find inspiring, they may approximate those tones well enough to be inspiring enough for the player and/or other people in the area.

So while the video is interesting, entertaining, and actually pretty cool overall, I think it demonstrates a lack of consideration for other perspectives and use cases. Tone in the room might not matter to him. It might not even matter to you. But to say it doesn't matter as a generalization is just plain old incorrect.

For the record, I like this guy's channel a lot. This just stood out to me as narrow-minded.

I think you make good points. I've also seen wood doesn't matter. To me, I guess being the neanderthal I am, it all matters. I do all my playing through headphones now. Had to get used to a bit of latency.

Who knows? I think most of that stuff is click bait. You take a premise with which most people agree and then prove it wrong. I've never heard any pro recording engineer or session player say the room didn't matter.

 

[Neon_Knight_]

Amp in the room tone is exactly what does matter unless you are recording (or have bad hearing / don't care about your tone). Literally no-one, anywhere, ever only records. How many people honestly spend more time recording themself playing than practising / performing / playing for fun without recording?

 

[Deadpool_25]

Name a guitar hero who became a guitar hero without spending thousands of hours practicing with amp in the room tone.

(I actually can name one, but you get my point)

 

[tayistay]

Well sucks to be that guy in the video! My "amp in room" tone sounds like awesome recorded tone. Wheeee!

(also I never wanted to sound like some particular recording, which seems to be what he chases)

 

[thraxil]

He says the sound in the room "isn't what we hear and isn't what we've ever heard."

Am I the only one who's been to quite a few shows that didn't use PAs (or only used one for vocals)? I gues I'm just a loser punk, not a Brad Paisley fan so my enjoyment of the guitar tone at those shows doesn't count.

Second, the premise of the video seems to be to debunk some claim about how feedback in the room actually directly changes the tone of the guitar. That *feels* like a strawman argument. Every "amp in the room" argument I've heard has been more along the lines that the guitarist being able to actually hear and react to the tone coming straight out of the amp makes for a better and more inspired performance, which is what most of us are more interested in. He cites a few examples of session players that do a good job laying down a track while monitoring with headphones. OK, yes, that's a reasonable case that you *can* get a good recorded guitar tone without needing "amp in the room" magic. I don't think it makes any sort of case that having a good tone in the room isn't still beneficial. Take the same guitarist and have them record a few DI takes with an in the room tone that they really like and a few where their monitoring setup is something that they find unpleasant to play through. Compare the output of those. Multiply that across the entire time spent *writing* music. I guess some people write directly into DAWs now via modellers and IRs, but is it really that uncommon to write your riffs and songs just plugged straight into a rig that you like the sound of directly in the room? If your tone that way is uninspiring, are you going to get the same results?

I don't know. I live in a small flat with neighbours. Most of my playing is through a modeller and closer to the "recorded tone" side of things than "amp in the room" and that's fine. I still enjoy myself and have fun. But man, there's nothing quite like the experience of plugging into a loud tube amp and cab and feeling like you're physically part of something when you play as the air moves around you. It seems like he's dismissive of that kind of experience. If all he's interested in is a recorded tone or the tone though a PA, fine, but there's more to the world of music than that.

Do acoustic players have discussions like this? Is there someone out there arguing that a nice sounding acoustic instrument doesn't matter because you've only ever heard them mic'ed through recordings or PAs?

 

[tedtan]

Every "amp in the room" argument I've heard has been more along the lines that the guitarist being able to actually hear and react to the tone coming straight out of the amp makes for a better and more inspired performance, which is what most of us are more interested in.

This is my take on amp in the room tone. I’m not trying to replace the PA (though I have played shows where we only had a PA for vocals and had to rely on the back line for guitars and bass), I just want something that inspires me to play well. If that’s a mic’ed up amp or digital sim, great, but often it’s a tube amp.

Do acoustic players have discussions like this? Is there someone out there arguing that a nice sounding acoustic instrument doesn't matter because you've only ever heard them mic'ed through recordings or PAs?

Not in my experience, though you may hear some say that their stage guitar only needs to sound good through the PA. Generally, they want the best sounding guitar they can get thier hands on.

As for an experienced tracking engineer, they’ll tell you to get the sound right at the source as far as the tone goes. But getting the performance right is even more important, so get the player whatever inspires them to deliver a great performance.

 

[Thaeon]

@c7spheres “In the room tone is tops for me, and I'd rather do my best to capture that than work through IRs, re-amping, or full digital signals. That stuff is super useful, and I enjoy it for what it is, but it doesn't replicate moving air and being blasted by a 4x12 in person. Even going to shows, I want to stand where I can get the benefit of the PA sound as well as the cabs. I've experienced both live amp and digital live, and for me there is a big difference. I've always used room mics and want to know what the in room, in person tone is like. Working with cabs and speaker combos is more rewarding than swapping amps. The type of recording method like tape tracking makes a big difference to me as well. Now, I'm admitting I prefer a more organic, in person tone than cleaner production. So I know the benefit of both and depends on the purpose. Same with in room tones vs recording and doing surgery in mixing/mastering. I dunno, ranting, but that's what inspires me.”

Sorry, quite function borked.
PAs move as much if not more air than a guitar amp. They’re better at efficiently reproducing sound than a guitar amp is. Small rooms are absolute ASS for sound reproduction at band volume.

Amp in the room tone is exactly what does matter unless you are recording (or have bad hearing / don't care about your tone). Literally no-one, anywhere, ever only records. How many people honestly spend more time recording themself playing than practising / performing / playing for fun without recording?

Live, the main sound that people will hear is direct off the cone through a mic. The PA is what makes the band sound balanced and good. Sure the stage sound can augment that, but that sound shouldn’t be the end goal. It’s garbo, muddy tripe. Don’t believe me, go see any local band play sans PA in a small room. Sounds absolutely amateur.

Am I the only one who's been to quite a few shows that didn't use PAs (or only used one for vocals)? I gues I'm just a loser punk, not a Brad Paisley fan so my enjoyment of the guitar tone at those shows doesn't count.

Second, the premise of the video seems to be to debunk some claim about how feedback in the room actually directly changes the tone of the guitar. That *feels* like a strawman argument. Every "amp in the room" argument I've heard has been more along the lines that the guitarist being able to actually hear and react to the tone coming straight out of the amp makes for a better and more inspired performance, which is what most of us are more interested in. He cites a few examples of session players that do a good job laying down a track while monitoring with headphones. OK, yes, that's a reasonable case that you *can* get a good recorded guitar tone without needing "amp in the room" magic. I don't think it makes any sort of case that having a good tone in the room isn't still beneficial. Take the same guitarist and have them record a few DI takes with an in the room tone that they really like and a few where their monitoring setup is something that they find unpleasant to play through. Compare the output of those. Multiply that across the entire time spent *writing* music. I guess some people write directly into DAWs now via modellers and IRs, but is it really that uncommon to write your riffs and songs just plugged straight into a rig that you like the sound of directly in the room? If your tone that way is uninspiring, are you going to get the same results?

I don't know. I live in a small flat with neighbours. Most of my playing is through a modeller and closer to the "recorded tone" side of things than "amp in the room" and that's fine. I still enjoy myself and have fun. But man, there's nothing quite like the experience of plugging into a loud tube amp and cab and feeling like you're physically part of something when you play as the air moves around you. It seems like he's dismissive of that kind of experience. If all he's interested in is a recorded tone or the tone though a PA, fine, but there's more to the world of music than that.

Do acoustic players have discussions like this? Is there someone out there arguing that a nice sounding acoustic instrument doesn't matter because you've only ever heard them mic'ed through recordings or PAs?

I don’t think he’s saying down enjoy that tone. I think he’s saying that a tone processed through a PA or recording equipment and then balanced well by an engineer is the goal for most people. I don’t enjoy the sound at a show without a PA. Sounds like a rehearsal, not a performance. Unbalanced. Incoherent. Too much bass. No thanks. My personal opinion is that sounds incredibly unprofessional. And I like sounding polished live. And I like being in the audience at shows where the sound is polished as well.

 

[Neon_Knight_]

Live, the main sound that people will hear is direct off the cone through a mic. The PA is what makes the band sound balanced and good. Sure the stage sound can augment that, but that sound shouldn’t be the end goal. It’s garbo, muddy tripe. Don’t believe me, go see any local band play sans PA in a small room. Sounds absolutely amateur.

Agreed, but if someone is playing a small venue (e.g. local bar) with no PA system, the "amp in the room" sound is the only sound. Same goes for band rehearsals, bedroom practice etc.

 

[Neon_Knight_]

@c7spheres “In the room tone is tops for me, and I'd rather do my best to capture that than work through IRs, re-amping, or full digital signals. That stuff is super useful, and I enjoy it for what it is, but it doesn't replicate moving air and being blasted by a 4x12 in person. Even going to shows, I want to stand where I can get the benefit of the PA sound as well as the cabs. I've experienced both live amp and digital live, and for me there is a big difference. I've always used room mics and want to know what the in room, in person tone is like.

Where would that be if you're on stage?

I never perform, but as a spectator the PA tends to sound optimal about 1/3 of the way into the crowd (usually happens to be just behind the pit).

 

[Deadpool_25]

Agreed, but if someone is playing a small venue (e.g. local bar) with no PA system, the "amp in the room" sound is the only sound. Same goes for band rehearsals, bedroom practice etc.

This.

 

[Deadpool_25]

 

[gunch]

that fried my eyeballs thanks

 

[tayistay]

Am I the only one who's been to quite a few shows that didn't use PAs (or only used one for vocals)?

I think for most of the metal shows I go to, they don't mic up the guitar amps. These are small venues with maybe 100 people in the audience, tops.