US Political Discussion: Trump Administration Edition (Rules in OP)

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by mongey, Mar 2, 2016.

  1. CapnForsaggio

    CapnForsaggio Cap'n (general)

    Messages:
    786
    Likes Received:
    24
    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2016
    Location:
    Albany, OR
    Here you go CelticElk:

    Romney earned zero votes in some urban precincts - CBS News

    The consensus seems to be that it is POSSIBLE that all of these districts were 0 votes R. In my opinion, that says more about the education level in those districts......

    You could argue that they are possibly more educated. :) It would have to be one hell of an argument though. It is low education party fascism in my opinion.
     
  2. celticelk

    celticelk Enflamed with prayer

    Messages:
    4,382
    Likes Received:
    333
    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Location:
    Ann Arbor, MI
    ^^^ So basically some urban African-American districts, at least some of which are known to have almost no registered Republicans living there, tallied zero votes for Republican candidates. I think you're making a lot out of nothing.
     
  3. CapnForsaggio

    CapnForsaggio Cap'n (general)

    Messages:
    786
    Likes Received:
    24
    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2016
    Location:
    Albany, OR
    Celtic, 1000x people won't even get their sex correct on a DMV form. Some percentage of them can't read....

    When people like me see a "goose egg" in data sets this large, it means only 1 thing:

    This data is false.

    No I don't have evidence to prove this. But I have worked with large data enough to know to be VERY suspicious of Zeroes like these.
     
  4. Promit

    Promit SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    1,342
    Likes Received:
    96
    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2013
    Location:
    Baltimore, MD
    I'm not exactly inclined to defend the Clintons, I mean: https://www.rt.com/usa/334360-68000-clinton-arrest-electioneering/ (Don't mind the source, several others are paywall nonsense)
    But there's enough ways to legally buy an election without having to go into conspiracy territory. If you find some actual statistics or studies on voter fraud, and want to discuss those, that's different.
     
  5. AngstRiddenDreams

    AngstRiddenDreams Filthy Casual

    Messages:
    3,488
    Likes Received:
    340
    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2011
    Location:
    Seattle
    *Tinfoil hat on*
    To me, this election really shows just how uninformed the average American is. Which I think is almost certainly a result of the media. I don't trust anything I hear from any news channel regarding politics, its agenda is not impartial. Unfortunately most people 45+ are so reliant on the news for what each candidate stands for and the things they are hearing are just so biased.
    I have a lot of old as$ friends of my dad friended on FB so that he can talk to them occasionally and it just seems like they are absolutely terrified of Bernie Sanders becoming President.
    I've seen things like, "you stupid freeloader, do you think that I should pay 50% of my income to government so that you can go to college?" albeit with more expletives and poorer grammar. It just seems like these people do not know the actual figures of candidates policies and the breakdown of costs. Obviously I'm biased as a college student in one of the most liberal major cities in America but its scary to me.
    Blind faith in media or ignorance, I'm not sure which it is.
    Also fvck Clinton, she's a republican lite as far as I'm concerned. On top of hopping the fence on policies to suit her agenda. Wolf in sheeps clothing.
    *tinfoil hat off*
     
  6. Aymara

    Aymara SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    1,334
    Likes Received:
    26
    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2015
    Location:
    Germany
    This problem exists all around the world and it's mainly a matter of education and especially (social) intelligence, because though people know what a newspaper hoax is and usually don't trust the yellow press, most people blindly trust, what they see in TV.

    They are not aware of the fact, that "video" can be manipulated and that it is totally easy to manipulate the meaning of a politician's speech, by choosing only a few phrases and change their sequential arrangement.

    I have often enough seen even academics argue: "But I've seen it with my own eyes." :D
     
  7. flint757

    flint757 SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    6,400
    Likes Received:
    197
    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2011
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    I was reading an interesting piece on this awhile back and the media went through like 3 or 4 stages of being sold out from a source of objective truth to what they want you to know instead. The first time was in the early 1900's when JP Morgan bought out several influential newspapers and hired his own editorial chiefs, then in the 50's or 60's the CIA either forced or merely convinced several newspapers to tell the stories they wanted told about the wars and things going on at the time, and then in the 80's during Reagan's deregulation the media went for sale to the highest bidder. All TV news is owned by one of 6 individuals now and they are all well acquainted with each other. The media is very biased because it is bought and paid for by both our government and some of the richest people in this country. Frankly, it isn't all that surprising, but it is terrifying that some people only have one of these 6 individual sources to get their news information from.

    I know a lot of people love the man [Reagan], but he was an awful president.
     
  8. celticelk

    celticelk Enflamed with prayer

    Messages:
    4,382
    Likes Received:
    333
    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Location:
    Ann Arbor, MI
    ^^^ You could say that about nearly any major industry. Is there a conspiracy to cripple our smartphones because the heads of Apple, Google, and Samsung all know each other? Or our cars? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
     
  9. flint757

    flint757 SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    6,400
    Likes Received:
    197
    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2011
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    Uhhh, what are you on about. JP Morgan DID buy out 25 newspapers and the media IS owned by 6 individual conglomerates. These are easily googled facts.

    It's not a big deal from a business standpoint, but media was supposed to be the last leg to fight off corruption and allow for objective news. You can't do that when you are either not allowed to write certain stories, or voice your opinion, because it paints their shareholders in a bad light or the individuals they might be working with. Look no further than FOX news to see just how corrupt media has gotten thanks to deregulation, allowing Rupert Murdoch to turn his news agency into a joke.
     
  10. flint757

    flint757 SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    6,400
    Likes Received:
    197
    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2011
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    Since you brought it up, the auto industry is actually very much so an oligopoly and they in fact did, many years ago, lobby to turn the market in their favor. One could argue some of the decisions they made, for the benefit of the auto industry, has had severely negative impacts on our society as a whole (massive road systems, laws against anything, but pretty much cars being allowed on roadways, lack of public transportation in many cities, businesses spreading further out making it necessary to own a vehicle, dealerships exclusively allowed to sell vehicles, etc.).

    In any case, nice try trying to turn my comment into something outlandish and ludicrous, but it's none of my business what you choose to believe.
     
  11. tacotiklah

    tacotiklah I am Denko (´・ω・`)

    Messages:
    6,593
    Likes Received:
    959
    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2009
    Location:
    Lancaster, CA
    And here's the clincher right here. And before anyone can say "well how do you know?"
    I'm a poll clerk. :lol:
    I'm one of the people that when you go and sign in, I can see what you're registered as and I check your name off before the person next to me hands you a ballot. You know how many more Republicans show up to vote than Democrats? A lot more. I'm talking like 5:1 margins. At the end of my shift, I have to count up the number of people that didn't show. The number of democrats that don't show up is crazy and breaks my heart every time. I remember working midterms and seeing inaction on democrats hand the house and senate over to Republicans.

    Call them nutty fundies all you want (please do, because they are and I laugh every time), but make sure you laugh at yourself for making everything under the sun more important than exercising a basic human right that takes 20 minutes tops. The part that is even more :rofl: worthy is that people think they have a right to bitch about things when they didn't even get off their lazy asses to do anything about it.

    Nope, you deserve nothing but shame and scorn for being the type of person that complains about bad things in their lives and politics, but does nothing to actually try to bring around change.

    Edit: To clarify, I mean you in a broad general context, not at any one individual. But if the shoe fits...
     
  12. AngstRiddenDreams

    AngstRiddenDreams Filthy Casual

    Messages:
    3,488
    Likes Received:
    340
    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2011
    Location:
    Seattle
    I believe if you source your information from a wide enough range of sources you'll eventually be close to the objective truth at the very least. It's difficult to control the vast majority of info on the Internet. That being said I also try to take what I hear from far left organizations with a grain of salt as much as I do CNN. okay not nearly as much as CNN but still, a small grain. A pebble if you will
     
  13. Pav

    Pav ???

    Messages:
    2,315
    Likes Received:
    75
    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2012
    Location:
    Toledo, OH
    As an Ohio native, I don't even want to entertain the idea of Kasich winning the nomination.
     
  14. TheStig1214

    TheStig1214 Mr. Tophat Jones

    Messages:
    1,134
    Likes Received:
    147
    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2012
    Location:
    Lawn Guyland
    It is funny though because at least from my standpoint the World News on BBC America is probably the least biased news source. But is more or less owned by a government.
     
  15. flint757

    flint757 SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    6,400
    Likes Received:
    197
    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2011
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    It's not that odd when you consider PBS and NPR are probably the most objective media you can get here in the states and they too are funded by the government.
     
  16. wankerness

    wankerness SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    4,485
    Likes Received:
    371
    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2012
    Location:
    WI
    Yeah, it makes sense the government-funded ones would be more objective since they're not the ones that have to make money off their content, they make money either way! The private ones all have to sensationalize things to keep the viewer count up to keep the ad money coming in.
     
  17. will_shred

    will_shred Wannabe audio engineer

    Messages:
    2,919
    Likes Received:
    440
    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2012
    Location:
    Rochester NY
    Trump said he would put up to 30,000 troops on the ground in Syria :(

    Do republicans not remember the Iraq War? I don't understand how anyone but a complete moron could support more intervention in that region, when history consistently shows that military intervention has only made the situation worse. I would like to think that both sides have valid opinions and points, but the Republican field just seems to be completely immune to the lessons of history. Even really recent history. More war and more tax breaks for the rich aren't going to do anything but hasten the disintegration of our society. And I don't think that there is really much room to argue on that.

    On the democratic side you have two extremely intelligent adults, mostly respectfully debating genuine solutions to the many problems that face our country. On the Republican side you have textbook demagoguery, with vague notions of making our country great "again", though military strength and destroying our 'enemies' and weeding out nay sayers from the society. Its the same kind of reckless militaristic nationalism that got us into the first world war. We will not progress as a society by waging more war. All that will accomplish is to bankrupt us, enrich military contractors, and waste untold amounts of resources that we could use to build our society. That .... really scares me. I couldn't really make out much about domestic fiscal policy because whenever they're asked about it, they either try to dodge the question by attacking the reporter, or make some vague statement about simplifying the tax code and cutting taxes. They have not addressed Wallstreet regulation, they have not addressed the national debt, they have not addressed the cost of healthcare, they have not addressed the cost of college, they have not addressed the dire need for education reform, they have not addressed our aging infrastructure, they have not addressed climate change, they have not addressed NSA spying, they have not addressed the war on drugs/mass incarceration, they have not addressed any of the issues that require a little deep thinking and fact checking. Could it be, that their base doesn't want to hear deep thinking and facts, that they don't want to hear about the scary realities we have to confront, but meaningless (yet comforting) rhetoric about how great our nation is or could be?

    Sorry for the rant, i'm a little pissy today. I'm just astounded by the sheer depth of people's ignorance. Like hello people, there are real issues that are really hurting our society, and you're busy worrying over Bill and Ted's marriage, preventing women from accessing reproductive healthcare, and sending more of our troops to die in a failed war of attrition.
     
  18. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

    Messages:
    14,933
    Likes Received:
    2,844
    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2005
    Location:
    St. Johnsbury, VT USA
    Maybe destroying our enemies is the answer. Who are our enemies, though? The GOP would say Obama or Clinton or Sanders are our enemies. That's what sets the GOP leadership apart from the moderate people. Americans are all Americans. Obama is not trying to kill you. I hate that the USA has taken to absolutism. "You're either with me, or you're against me! :flex: " What happened to being able to disagree with someone, but still liking them?!
     
  19. will_shred

    will_shred Wannabe audio engineer

    Messages:
    2,919
    Likes Received:
    440
    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2012
    Location:
    Rochester NY
    By our enemies i'm generally referring to Islamic jihadist organizations. I don't think the answer is to bomb them out of existence, which is what every single person on the GOP side is calling for. That's like neanderthal level thinking. The Anti-American sentiment in that region goes all the way back to post-war US impearialism in that region (Like assassinating the democratically elected president of Iran and installing the Shah, just as one example). So I don't think that more heavy handed imperial policies are going to fix the problem that they started.

    and just to reiterate my point about the disparity between one side being grounded in reality, and the other side being in some kind of alternate universe, lets see what Politifact has to say about the candidates.

    According to Politifact 50% of Hillary Clinton's statements rate between true and mostly true, 13% of her statements rate as false, and only 1% of her statements rate as "pants on fire". 50% of Sanders statements rate between true and mostly true, 15% of his statements rate as false, and %0 of his statements rate as "pants on fire".

    Now lets take a look at the GOP field. Only 7% of Trump's statements rate between true and mostly true with only 1% being rated as true. 17% of his statements rate as mostly false, 41% of his statements rate as false, and 19% "as pants on fire" (outright lies). %5 of Ted Cruz's statements rate as true, 16% rate as "mostly true". So 21%, better then Trump, but nowhere close to either dem candidates. 28% of his statements rate as "mostly false" and 30% rate as false, with an additional 7% being rated as pants on fire. Rubio fares the best out of them all, which is still rather abysmal. With 36% of his statements being rated between true and mostly true, 39% of his statements rating between mostly false, and false, and 3% of his statements being rated as pants on fire.

    There is no contest here. Sanders and Clinton's arguments are both far more grounded in reality then anyone then GOP has to offer.

    If you're curious about the source, Politifact, they have an overview of their procedures on their website.

    The Principles of PolitiFact, PunditFact and the Truth-O-Meter | PolitiFact

    and to answer your question, this is why the two sides can't just "get along". One group of people is largely brainwashed by fox news and the right wing echo chamber, completely out of touch with the rest of the world, and another group of people generally tries their best to be open minded and get to the bottom of the issues of the day. and of course there are also plenty of non-brainwashed people who just plain don't care, and i'm not even going to go into that demographic at the moment.

    If you need more evidence of the ignorance of the right wing, let me direct you to this study which shows that Fox News viewers are less likely to correctly answer questions about domestic affairs then people who watch no news at all. While people who listen to NPR and international news sources were the most informed on average, people who listen to Fox were the least informed. And this is coming from Business Insider, not exactly a left leaning periodical.

    STUDY: Watching Fox News Makes You Less Informed Than Watching No News At All - Business Insider
     
  20. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

    Messages:
    14,933
    Likes Received:
    2,844
    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2005
    Location:
    St. Johnsbury, VT USA
    Politifact is a great site.

    There is no contest between DNC and GOP as far as the amount of logic applied to actual facts. My point above was, that at the end of the day, the Democrats will try to compromise and the Republicans will stick to dealing in absolutes. If you disagree with one, you will get into a discussion. If you disagree with the other, you will be threatened. Dubya made that the precedent, and it will continue until the party is gone.

    That's not to say the DNC is doing a great job. I think they suck, personally. But, if something is not working very well, the correct course of action is to either repair it or replace it with something that works better. The GOP seems to be on a path now that leads me to believe they prefer to watch everything burn to the ground and then rebuild it their way on top of the smoldering ashes of the nation.
     

Share This Page