The truth about Blackmachines?

Discussion in 'Standard Guitars' started by Velokki, Nov 30, 2018.

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  1. Dineley

    Dineley SS.org Regular

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    every time I read the thread title I just think of this.

    [​IMG]
     
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  2. Ordacleaphobia

    Ordacleaphobia Shameless Contrarian

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    This is disheartening. Hopefully the B2 he mentioned is still fair game; although I'm sure somewhere there's a bigger fish that will offer him double what I can.
    Still glad to see him building again, but damn, that headstock is what really tied the whole look together for me :shrug:
     
  3. diagrammatiks

    diagrammatiks SS.org Regular

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    I’m still not convinced a feline counts.
     
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  4. narad

    narad SS.org Regular

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    I like B6s, but as far as "blackmachine hype", there is no hype about B6s. Same price and availability as always, used ones sit for weeks or months if they price close to new, etc.

    I mean, you're probably not getting anything particularly special with either Feline/Doug blackmachines, apart from a good guitar. I don't want to downplay the Feline either, as Jonathan's been building for forever, but I don't think either of these builders would come out and use the kind of hyperbole that the guys flipping them use, and which drives threads of this sort.

    Anyone familiar with Klons?

    [​IMG]

    You know the marketing circle-jerk is bad when builders have to literally call it ridiculous _on the product itself_
     
  5. diagrammatiks

    diagrammatiks SS.org Regular

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    I mean my truth about blackmachines is that if it’s Doug built I’m in because I was around for that hype and it’s super cool that it’s a guitar that he built.

    But If it’s a feline Blackmacbine I’m out. Nothing against feline. His other guitars are good.
     
  6. thrsher

    thrsher \m/-_-\m/

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    looks like doug is offering a few spots in march 2019, when i inquired back in 2016 for a build that was available, he was asking 9600GBP
     
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  7. IbanezDaemon

    IbanezDaemon Raptus regaliter

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    So they will be in excess of £10,000 now. For that kind of coin you can get 3 new high end boutique guitars or at least 4 or 5 used models. Someone will pay it though and I reckon the slots will go quickly enough
     
  8. Ordacleaphobia

    Ordacleaphobia Shameless Contrarian

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    Doug wrote me back, and while pricing on the B2 isn't what I would call insane for these guitars by any means, it's definitely more than what I can afford.
    He also confirmed that the run in March is going to be for a new model that he'll be posting on the website soon. To use his words, it will be "a guitar with a predominantly vintage voice to allow for a wide range of genres to be played convincingly," which doesn't scream 'headless' to me, but stranger things have happened. Either way, I'm just excited to see the guy build again. I love his work.
     
  9. pott

    pott SS.org Regular

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    What does that mean?

    Waghorn, Carillion, Daemoness etc... can be made easily for GBP3k with some pretty damn solid specs (I have a Waghorn which came way under this value). A B6 is 2.3k (or it was 3 years ago).
    Are you implying, and it's fine if you don't want to give details, that his B2 pricing is around these lines? Anything vastly higher would be unexpected.

    Guitar making isn't magic; there's little reason why a B2 would be better, or worse, than these guitars: it's just a different axe, by a different builder, with different specs, made out of the same wood and hardware and hence fixed costs.
     
  10. noise in my mind

    noise in my mind SS.org Regular

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    I wonder how much money it is for the pictures of this new Doug guitar?
     
  11. Dineley

    Dineley SS.org Regular

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    You wouldnt know the new guitar it goes to a different school
     
  12. Ordacleaphobia

    Ordacleaphobia Shameless Contrarian

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    I'm not going to post the number since if he wanted it public he would have posted it publicly, but considering I said earlier here I was hoping for about GBP5k, it's definitely safe to say the number is 'vastly higher,' but I think you may be alone in not expecting that. Most people here seemed to have foreseen this result.

    I also think you're conflating value with worth. The value of a B2 is marginally different from any high end custom guitar. Like you said, the components are the same. But it's worth much, much more, because people are willing to pay those prices for one. Remember, Doug doesn't care about other shops; they aren't his business and have no affect on his market. Doug knows this, and is probably not enthusiastic about the idea of somebody buying one of his guitars and then just flipping it for a substantial profit; and thus he needs to price his labor closer to the market. The result: expensive builds.

    That said, all I'm saying is that I don't think the number he gave me was at all unreasonable given current day circumstances. It's just a shame I don't have the money to give him; otherwise I would.
     
  13. pott

    pott SS.org Regular

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    I think you misunderstand what I said. I'm not conflating anything. I'm only saying the 'extra' amount paid is what the 'hype charge' is over other, similar-quality, high-end metal instruments also made in the UK.
    What I or others expect is irrelevant; what's relevant is who is willing to pay what. If the former exceeds the latter, people won't buy and it's their business, likewise the other direction. If you want to pay the extra money, good for you. No one should be judging you for that.

    All I was asking is how much that extra charge was, not how much it's worth to you or others :)
     
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  14. Ordacleaphobia

    Ordacleaphobia Shameless Contrarian

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    Ah; yes. It definitely sounds like I did then as we seem to be singing the same tune.
    I read it as if we were about to go down the "Blackmachines aren't worth it Doug is full of it and people who buy them are suckers" rabbit hole we've all been down before and I wanted to nip that in the bud :lol:

    Cheers mate. :cheers:
     
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  15. Velokki

    Velokki GAS station

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    This is interesting discussion, let me share my 2 cents.

    I think that whatever the case, if a guitar sounds good and feels good, it's a winner. Now, I talked to Jonathan from Feline for a quite while just yesterday - over 40 minutes. I asked some very specific questions, and I was impressed by the depth of the answers every time. Now, remember, Doug and Jonathan are best friends for almost 30 years. Both have been and are really passionate about luthiery, and they've shared their knowledge throughout their careers. Now, it's Doug who developed the design of Blackmachines, which of course makes him the guru here. Now, for a long time, they've constantly worked together, and that's why the B6 was taken under Jonathan's wing.

    I asked Jonathan, whether Doug's guitars are objectively better than Feline Blackmachines. He said they have some customers with a Doug's B6 (he did make the first 29 B6s) and a Feline's B6. They're very, very similar, like 95%, but the consensus leans towards the newer ones being slightly better. Especially the finish is slightly better on the latter ones made by Feline.

    He also told me a story from about 5 years ago, when they met up with Doug, and Doug had his B2 with him, Jonathan had his Feline line. They compared their guitars' set-ups to each other, and they were unbelievably close. They used feeler gauges that were thousandths of an inch to be scientifically accurate, and landed on exactly the same results between the guitars. If they'd commissioned each other to set up their respective guitars, they wouldn't have had to do anything. The important thing here to learn is that they operate to exactly same standards, and he really emphasized this. What their idea of "perfect" is, is 100% aligned. I think this is really important, when comparing the two builders.

    Based on everything I've read, I think it's fair to say that Jonathan has even ever so slightly improved on Doug's B6 design. Doug is the visionary, and no doubt a masterful luthier, but Jonathan did improve on the finish on the newer B6s. Also, for example mine comes with a Pau Ferro board, which I think looks better, but according to Jonathan, also sounds a bit snappier. And that's what I want, so I chose that over Rosewood.

    This is just what I've been able to gather. When I get my guitar next week, I'll do a review. Hopefully it's worthy of the hype!
     
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  16. IbanezDaemon

    IbanezDaemon Raptus regaliter

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    Great info Velokki. Looking forward to your review and hey...congratz on scoring a BM. I'm gonna be in the market for one at some point...it's an itch I have to scratch..so the more reviews of the newer ones the better!
     
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  17. jephjacques

    jephjacques BUTTS LOL

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    I had sex with a B2 and a BRJ and neither guitar was any good in bed
     
  18. Velokki

    Velokki GAS station

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    The catch of the joke is that he really masturbated both times. BRJ never actually arrived and he turned down the B2 when he heard her price!
     
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  19. IbanezDaemon

    IbanezDaemon Raptus regaliter

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    I'm surprised the BRJ didn't cancel the date and not give a valid reason. ;-)
     
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  20. Humbuck

    Humbuck SS.org Regular

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    It is my understanding through conversations with Feline that Doug only made the first B6 and that every other one is made by Feline. The first batch of 29 or whatever it was, were assembled by Doug...not made by Doug. The rest were and are built and assembled by Feline.

    A small but important distinction that comes up constantly in listings for used B6's for sale...the myth of the "Doug built" B6's.
     
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