Steel Panther's Satchel patch removed due to petition against name

Discussion in 'General Music Discussion' started by ImNotAhab, Jul 10, 2018.

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  1. Exchanger

    Exchanger SS.org Regular

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    I think there is much more to humor than targeted mockery (absurd jokes, puns, comedic plots...). And when there is mockery, it can be in a healthy way (making fun of one's corruption or despicable behaviors, denting the smooth image a company or political party tries to give itself to turn attention away from their actions...) in which case it's called satire. And then some venture in edgier darker themes, take upon race, gender, sexism and yet still there is room for smart jokes in here : if you can turn it into actual criticism of these phenomenons. And yes it has become much harder to do these days because all the alt-right and affiliated say the exact same things but with a different level of interpretations.

    In the case of the Pussy Melter, to me it feels exactly the same as this :
    [​IMG]
    Who in their sane mind would think seriously that using a specific effect will suddenly make you sexually attractive ?
    It's ok to like or not like Steel Panther, might be over the top, we got the joke now move on etc... I like the suggestion someone made here of them pretending to go clean and religious in a parodic way...but I don't think these guys are trying to empower sexism. Even if they're not 100% parody, wanting to get laid doesn't mean you think women are inferior or should be paid less or treated like shit.

    Now according to one post in this thread, there have been harassment issues in the crowd at SP shows, and even by the crew. If this is true then this should be adressed as such, maybe the band should make statements as to where the joke stop and where unacceptable behaviors start...but I'd say attacking the pedal's name is completely missing the point.
     
  2. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    You know what’s offensive? You thinking I wouldn’t take the seconds to research the bullshit you’re spewing.

    http://www.canadalandshow.com/no-wont-jailed-using-wrong-pronoun/
     
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  3. Spaced Out Ace

    Spaced Out Ace 0 0 1 0 0 6 5 0 3\

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    And they get easily offended by everything. In fact, this might even offend a few of you.
     
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  4. Sogradde

    Sogradde SS.org Regular

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    Ataraxia2320 likes this.
  5. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    This is your claim: “it is (or will be soon?) illegal to "misgender" someone in Canada”

    Defend it.

    Full text:

    University of Toronto professor Jordan Peterson has been in the news this week for taking a stand on behalf of suffering pronouns everywhere. His claim that a proposed change to Canada’s criminal code and national anti-discrimination laws to protect “gender identity or expression” could result in charges for anyone who refuses to call transgender people by their preferred pronouns has been covered by CBC, CTV, Vice, the National Post and Yahoo News.

    “All it will do is produce a huge tangle in the legal system and a lot of ill will, and I think most of that will eventually be directed against people who are visibly different,” the psychology professor said on “This Morning.”

    One problem with Peterson’s theory: it’s flat-out wrong, according to lawyers and academics who spoke to CANADALAND.

    Bill C-16, whose full text can be found by Googling “Bill C-16”, would add just four words — “gender identity or expression” — to the list of factors like race and sex that government agencies and businesses regulated by the national government can’t use to discriminate. The same words would also be added to a section of criminal law (which anyone can find online) that forbids advocating genocide.

    In the same way that people aren’t routinely locked up for using racial slurs, it’s also extremely unlikely they’d be jailed for referring to a trans person who prefers to be called “they” as “he” or “she.” Richard Moon, a professor at the University of Windsor who studies freedom of speech issues, said remarks have got to “be really extreme in character” before they qualify as criminal hate speech.

    Using a pronoun a transgender person doesn’t like, “as offensive and distasteful as it is, would likely not be something that could be prosecuted under the criminal code,” said Noa Mendelsohn Aviv, a lawyer with the Canadian Civil Liberties Association who runs the group’s equality project. “I would find it hard to believe” a prosecutor would file charges on that basis, she said.

    Yet few journalists have challenged Peterson’s claims, which he also made in a YouTube video which has been viewed over 40,000 times. In a recent broadcast of the CBC’s “As It Happens,” interviewer Carol Off even stated outright that the bill would ban using the wrong pronouns to refer to trans people:

    CO: What you are proposing, that you will not use pronouns, may become something that’s a criminal offense. Are you aware of that?

    JP: Of course I’m aware of that — that’s exactly what I wrote the lecture about.

    Peterson didn’t respond to interview requests via email, Facebook and Twitter, and Off declined to comment through a CBC spokesperson.

    The bill does instruct judges to sentence people more harshly when gender identity-based hatred is a factor. That gives prosecutors more power if they press charges in a case like X v. Sugar Daddy’s Nightclub, where a transgender person who uses the men’s bathroom sought financial damages for being dragged out of a stall, called transphobic slurs, and beaten.

    Bill C-16 would also give the Canadian Human Rights Commission new powers to impose civil penalties, or fines, on businesses for discriminating against transgender people. But Moon and Kyle Kirkup, a law professor at the University of Ottawa, said several provinces banned gender discrimination by businesses years ago. Bill C-16 would just apply those same standards to federal agencies and federally regulated industries, Kirkup said, like banks and telecoms.


    Even in provinces without those laws, human rights tribunals have interpreted bans on sex discrimination to protect trans people as well, said Andrea Zwack, an attorney who frequently represents businesses.

    “There is not great concern on the part of employers on this point, as most progressive and aware employers already prohibit discrimination on this basis in their workplaces,” she said.
     
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  6. Sogradde

    Sogradde SS.org Regular

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    Source.

    Now define Hate-Speech.
    And while you're at it, please take the time to answer the questions I asked you before.
     
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  7. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    This is from your own source:

    During the Senate hearings, opponents of the bill gave testimony against it, arguing it undermines free speech, “criminalizes” incorrect pronoun use and threatens “women only” spaces such as rape crisis centers. Arguments about free speech and pronoun criminalization have been debunked by legal experts, and several women’s anti-violence organizations released a statement calling such testimony “harmful” and reiterated unequivocally that “trans women are women.”
     
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  8. narad

    narad SS.org Regular

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    But experts say just using an incorrect pronoun isn't enough to qualify as criminal hate speech. "Absolutely not a chance," says University of Toronto law professor Brenda Cossman. "There is no criminalization of the misuse of pronouns."

    Richard Moon, a University of Windsor professor who studies freedom of speech issues, says only speech that is "extreme in character" would qualify as criminal. He says the person uttering the words must be found to have "willfully promoted hatred."

    http://www.foxnews.com/world/2018/0...il-in-canada-for-misusing-gender-pronoun.html

    (Posting a fox news article as a comparatively sane citation. What is the world coming to?)
     
  9. Sogradde

    Sogradde SS.org Regular

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    Why do you keep avoiding my questions?
     
  10. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    Because you’re not taking part in this discussion in good faith. If you want to stretch the truth, mislead or outright lie, go for it. Just understand that no one is going to take you seriously unless you put some effort into being honest.
     
  11. Sogradde

    Sogradde SS.org Regular

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    Oh the irony. Maybe it would be more to your liking if I started spamming you with quotes and ignoring your questions instead?
     
  12. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    If by “spamming...with quotes” you mean providing sources, yeah I’d prefer that.

    None of the questions I’ve asked you weren’t rhetorical.

    If you have something legitimate to say, say it. You shouldn’t need to set up your argument with baiting questions.
     
  13. prlgmnr

    prlgmnr ...that kind of idea

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    So much so that it should maybe be really obvious to you that what people are bothered about is not "being offended" but something more substantial.
     
  14. Sogradde

    Sogradde SS.org Regular

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    To be fair, neither of us provided actual sources, we both provided bias'd pieces which are not of academical nature.
    Not being able to answer my questions hardly counts as "baiting" on my part. But sure, if you're unwilling to engage in a discussion, more power to you.
     
  15. narad

    narad SS.org Regular

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    Academics don't write papers dispelling alt-right news articles, btw.
     
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  16. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    I’m not unwilling to engage in discussion, I’m unwilling to do so with you specifically because you have absolutely nothing to offer outside of alt-right memes and willful ignorance.
     
  17. Edika

    Edika SS.org Regular

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    Good points made in this thread and as usual it veered of in other areas lol.

    It really makes sense on the perception of things like comedy, parody and satire and some times acts and comedians purposely cross the line to raise some noise around their name. It has to do with what life experiences it's individual has and how they approach things. I mean the first time I saw and heard the videoclip "Death to All But Metal" it was immediately evident it was a parody of 80's hair metal. I didn't listen to that genre because I was quite young but when I became aware of it and what was going on behind the scenes I never thought "that's awesome, I'd like to do that!", I found it repulsive. To my perception Steel Panther isn't normalizing these behaviors through laughter, it's just showing how much of a tool and a moron someone with that mindset is. To me they're greatly influenced by Spinal Tap.

    I remember when I was listening to a couple of songs and my wife was in the room, she suddenly paid attention to the lyrics and turned to me with a puzzled look and I explained to her the premise of the band. She then just rolled her eyes with the silly stuff I entertain myself with. I'm not giving this an anecdotal argument to say that women are ok with or should be ok with this. Maybe it's an emotional reaction from my part as I like Steel Panther's music and I like Satchel's guitar work. I mean I play Asian Hooker with a friend along with other regular songs but I have a lot of Asian colleagues and would never even mention I play this song to them for obvious reasons. The only reason I play this song is because I like the music.

    My negative reaction towards this pedal was because it reminded me the article about the Rolling Stones museum in Germany were there were protests against the urinals shaped like the classic Rolling Stone mouth. The protesters considered the urinals sexist because they represented a woman's mouth. In this situation, as the above, context is really important.

    On the other hand I do watch some known stand up comedians that will use some exaggerated jokes that can pass off as misogynistic for the shock factor, but then I see all these conservative right wing beta cuck snowflakes reproducing those in youtube as proof of (white) male supremacy and putting women in their rightful place. After the whole discussion in this thread I thought about it a bit longer and came to the conclusion that my viewpoint might be just a bit immaturely naive on how comedy affects individuals. It tends to reinforce some ideological notions regardless if that was never the intention and to the minds of some individuals (maybe a lot?) it might reinforce some incorrect conclusions. Of course those people must be really pathetic individuals to get influenced in social and political by comedians but this is the reality that we live in.

    Honestly though, before this thread, I wasn't even aware about this pedal. Even if they left the name like that I wouldn't buy it because a) come on it would have the name Pussy Melter on it and b) I don't use delay or effects that much. After this whole discussion I have reconsidered why it would be offensive for women and it was a valid response from her side. I still believe it was an overreaction to a bad joke but since a lot of people felt strongly about it and backed it up then it's obviously not ok and taking the joke too far.

    I'm kind of typing this as I go and I'm not sure if everything makes sense or is contradictory. I'm torn between this is goofy joke band that under no way should be taken seriously as they don't represent these ideas out of their shtick and by the fact that this can seem offensive to women and might influence negatively impressionable people.
     
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  18. blacai

    blacai SS.org Regular

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  19. KnightBrolaire

    KnightBrolaire despair ahead

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    [​IMG]
    well this thread took a hell of a turn
     
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  20. Sogradde

    Sogradde SS.org Regular

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    Indeed, using labels to demonize me so you don't have to engage in a discussion is so very tolerant and liberal of you.
    Now where have I seen that one before...
     
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