One does not simply flutter

Discussion in 'Beginners/FAQ' started by DrPaul, Jun 27, 2014.

  1. Nlelith

    Nlelith SS.org Regular

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    I don't believe in it. Here's a guy with Ibanez, and it's trem (some sort of Edge, I believe) flutters insanely good. And here's tracking session of the original song, played with EBMM. Lee's not playing that particular part with flutters, but you can hear it on playback, and I believe there was no editing done yet (considering it's only tracking). And again, it flutters great.
     
  2. DrPaul

    DrPaul SS.org Regular

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    How do you make a Kahler flutter better? is there any way at all?
     
  3. decreebass

    decreebass ...Mulva?

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    I'm beginning to wonder if maybe having MORE springs is the answer? When I changed to 9s and LESS springs, the flutter got better, but only ever so slightly. I think I should have left the springs as they were... It took almost an hour to balance the bridge and I wore my knuckle raw against the battery cover trying to screw the trem claw in due to the angle necessary to get proper force.

    Anyway, I wonder if maybe I should have ADDED a spring? Given the various gauges of strings, I'm sure no one formula perfectly describes the strings' actions during a flutter (chaos/fractal theoreticians, where you at?) but I'm sure 7 strings are way more chaotic than 6, even in a perfectly controlled situation.

    Unfortunately, I don't have the patience yet to test this theory; though I suppose it should only involve adding the springs and adjusting the claw... so maybe I'll do it...
     
  4. Nlelith

    Nlelith SS.org Regular

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    I've changed strings on my 7 yesterday. Unfortunately, I had only heavy gauge strings, so two springs couldn't handle 11-50 set + 70 strings (but it feels like 2 springs would be enough for set of 10-46+68 in drop G). Tried to set springs parallel, didn't make fluttering any better.

    decreebass, actually, now I think that adding/removing springs won't affect fluttering, if string gauge remains the same, since it will require same tension on them. Logically, I think less tension should make fluttering better, and vice-versa, because more tension makes trem more "resistant" to angle change, thus, inhibit vibration more fast... At least I think physics works this way.
     
  5. pushpull7

    pushpull7 Banned

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    It's an edge zero with the stop bar likely removed. I did that and it worked. The EZ2's do it as well, but the arms don't stay put as well.
     
  6. pushpull7

    pushpull7 Banned

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    BTW, of all the guitars I've had, this murican deluxe HSS strat is the best for fluttering. The arm stays back if you want and it just goes nuts. Second closest would be the OFR, but the arms are like the EZ2, they don't stay put thus making it more of a problem.
     
  7. decreebass

    decreebass ...Mulva?

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    Yea that was my point from the beginning (not sure if it was this thread or not) but either way, to have strings tuned, there needs to be a specific tension; whether or not there's 2, 3, or 5 springs - no matter what the tension has to balance the strings. So if I remove a spring, then I still have to increase the remaining springs' tension to compensate so in effect nothing has changed unless some microscopic forces act differently on two versus three springs.

    I dunno, it's all confusing and I guess we still don't have a definitive solution lol.
     
  8. DrPaul

    DrPaul SS.org Regular

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    I would agree; my left hand strat (though I'm right handed) flutters really well with the tremolo arm stiff. I think that there are 3 springs in parallel.

    I'm going to see if an increase in tension would make the tremolo flutter differently by changing the strings and adjusting the springs to match the string tension.

    I going to try it tomorrow.

    EDIT: I changed the strings, and it seems that it doesn't make much difference, so tension really doesn't affect the flutter at all.
     
  9. Nlelith

    Nlelith SS.org Regular

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    Btw, there was a thread similar to this a while ago, and here's what one forum user suggested:
    I did set up Floyd posts on equal height, it helped just a little bit, and knife edges are in great condition, but maybe lubricating them will also help? Did anyone try that?
     
  10. decreebass

    decreebass ...Mulva?

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    Wow! I had completely overlooked this aspect of the trem. I wonder if Petrucci or the guy in the video modded his at all? I'd just be afraid that having too sharp of a knife-edge would eventually cause a deformation OF the knife-edge... But I can definitely see how the heights being equal could make a difference.
     
  11. Nlelith

    Nlelith SS.org Regular

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    decreebass, funny thing is that you posted in that very thread I took a quote from. And about knife edges, I don't think that you need to sharpen them, lol, just already worn out knife edges going to cause problems with fluttering.
     
  12. decreebass

    decreebass ...Mulva?

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    lol I need to start subscribing to the threads I post in :) I totally have no recollection of it (maybe it progressed after I left).
     
  13. Timfever

    Timfever SS.org Regular

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    Well, I'm a. It late to the party, but I recently picked up a killer Ltd ed BC Rich Warlock with a Kahler, and I did notice trouble with flittering -- but 90% was that wussy ass bar they come with with. Either get a heavy metal bar (if you wanna spend $30...) or any 5 mm FR style bar ya can find online.

    Just like a Les Paul having more sustain cause it weighs 12 lbs? Well, the extra weight and density of those bars probably makes quite a difference.
     
  14. Timfever

    Timfever SS.org Regular

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    Oh, and always be brave enough to mess around with your bar's tension and all of that...I have one of those new Floyd FRXs on an old SG of mine (a 94 Special, my 2nd guitar) and I had to futz with the push in bar (BTW? Is that GREATEST FUCKING INVENTION EVER or what?) for days to get it right. Same with my Kahler.
     
  15. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    Way late to this party as well, but since someone else bumped this thread up...

    The freshman physics version of Hooke's law is that the restoring force of a spring is directly proportional to the displacement from resting position, or F = k x

    What we are interested in is establishing periodic motion of the system, where the mass (the bridge) is pulled beyond the resting position, so that the force will then push the bridge back, establishing a damped harmonic oscillator with damping force given by Fd = -cv. The differential equation of concern here is ma + cv + kx = 0, where m is the mass of the system, a is the bridge's acceleration, c the damping force coefficient, v the speed of motion, k the spring stiffness, and x the position of the bridge. The solution to the equation is of the form x = e^Bt, where B = (-c ± sqrt(c² - 4mk))/2m

    The oscillator must be "underdamped," so c² < 4mk, otherwise flutter will not work. So, the square of the damping force must be less than four times the mass of the system multiplied by the spring's stiffness. Adding more stiffness helps (c² < 4mk more likely if k is big), if the mass of the system is bigger, or if the damping force is smaller. So, lube up your bearings, drop in extra springs, and use heavier strings.
     
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  16. LiveOVErdrive

    LiveOVErdrive SS.org Regular

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    Well that takes me back to college physics. Nice write up.

    Here's a picture of underdamping vs over:
    [​IMG]

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but a higher mass on the bridge will make a big difference as well, right? I. E. A bigger trem block? If you view it as a mass-spring system (with string tension rather than gravity), that would be a higher mass, which would lower the oscillating frequency and offset the damping. Or something. It's been a while.
     
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  17. odibrom

    odibrom .

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    @bostjan that's interesting... I'm not versed in physics, so my understanding is based on my personal experience. I have 3 LoPro edge guitars, all 25", all bolt on, same woods, etc... one is 6 strings the other 2 are 7 stringers. They are all loaded with D'Addario XL .009 packs and all in E Standard and all with 3 parallel springs. The 6 stringer flutters for ages, while the 7s don't. On the 7s, one flutters better than the other. Both 7s are exactly equal (both Ibbys RG2027XVV), difference being the pickups used. Why would one flutter better?

    To my simple physics understanding, it looks like a pendular problem, hooked to string/spring system, but a pendular problem. Adding mass to the trem will improve fluttering, but adding tension to the string/spring system won't, which is what happens from the 6 to the 7s. Although trem mass is raised, it looks like the also raised string/spring tension gets raised in a bigger effect.

    Now for a curious note, raised/squealed flutters (when one has the trem arm pointed to the guitar's bottom) flutter for longer time than downed/dived flutters (when one has the trem arm pointed to the guitar's neck)... this makes me think that the more distance the trem center mass is from the pivot point, the better, for there will be a bigger lever and therefore, a harder to level the movement energy.

    Also, as stated elsewhere in these forums, I would bet in less strings (number of strings) than in more for a better fluttering action. This may imply for harder springs or stretched longer in order to keep tension balance.

    So, we have here a possible market product: heavy weight to add mass to trems for better fluttering... wait there already is, but their argument is tone... :D
     
  18. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    Well, my post was deliberately oversimplified. There are actually a lot of factors at play:

    How much impulse is applied to the system? If you apply more initial displacement, the amplitude of your flutter will be higher, assuming you begin the flutter by simply letting go of the arm. Flicking the arm is usually a better technique, IMO, because it decreases to contact time of the force for a better impulse.

    The RG2027X has some wires coming out of the trem, no? Does this interfere with the motion of the bridge in any way? I don't know.

    Pickups with very strong magnets also increase damping.

    The bridge is a SHO (simple harmonic oscillator), except for several little facts and the not-so-little fact that it's attached to a vibrating string that is its own SHO with a much higher frequency. The amount of flutter has to do with the overall achieved frequency-modulated tone of the string, as it is recreated by the amplifier you are using. I don't know how amp settings, pickups, blah blah blah, affects the overall effect, but for simplicity's sake, I think looking at the bridge itself to start is key. If the bridge doesn't flutter, then I guess, nothing else much matters.

    I have guitars with lo pro's, guitars with OFR's, guitars with Kahler's, and Parker trems. In my experience, the lo pro edge trems flutter "easier" than the others. For the longest time, I didn't think I could flutter on my Parker. I *think* the deal maker or breaker here is in technique. They all have different ergonomics, and my guitar-playing friends have different flutter-preferences than I do. Obviously, you could make a bridge that would theoretically flutter nonstop for days, but if you can't get the darn thing started, it doesn't much matter.

    Oh, and, sorry, the mass of the system - so everything that is moving to create the flutter effect - the trem, sustain block, string retainers, bar, whatever is moving.
     
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  19. odibrom

    odibrom .

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    So... the question we all nerds want to ask but are afraid to sound silly:

    If I want to improve my guitars' fluttering time, what should I do? Change spring combo: more or less springs? Add mass to the trem? Lighten the string gauge?...

    Oh, @bostjan my 2027s do have some wire coming out of the trem, but I don't feel it dampening the movement. Overall I feel the 7s trem way more stiffer than the 6 stringer one, meaning I have to apply more force to achieve the same effect of dive or squeal. There is obviously more tension in the sustem.

    Less tension and more mass on the bridge = endless fluttering?

    As for fluttering technique, I see 2 ways on each of the up or down pitch fluttering, one having the trem arm pointing towards the headstock and at the opposite direction. For the up pitch fluttering, I feel it is better to have the trem arm pointing away from the headstock and pressing it down towards the guitar's body for string stretch, releasing it after. For the down pitch fluttering, I prefer to point the trem's arm at the headstock and again press it against the guitar body for spring stretch before releasing it.

    How do you do yours?
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2017
  20. LiveOVErdrive

    LiveOVErdrive SS.org Regular

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    Let's look at the damping ratio equation:

    ζ = c/(2√(km))

    We want the damping ratio to be lower, so we want to increase "m" and "k". So:

    To get more flutter:
    - more/heavier springs and strings
    - more mass on the bridge (get a big heavy tone block)

    Does this make sense with what people have said about 7 strings fluttering less? No. But maybe there are other factors there that make "c" higher and increase the damping factor.

    Side note : I haven't talked physics in years and am currently loving this thread.
     

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