One does not simply flutter

Discussion in 'Beginners/FAQ' started by DrPaul, Jun 27, 2014.

  1. DrPaul

    DrPaul SS.org Regular

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    how well can a kahler flutter? I've never actually seen someone flutter on one, and was wandering if it can be made to flutter like a floyd, because I've been leaning more and more towards kahlers.
     
  2. Durero

    Durero prototyping... Contributor

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    Skip to 3:20
     
  3. DrPaul

    DrPaul SS.org Regular

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    Is there any way to make a kahler flutter better? I know it can't ever best an OFR but I have the inclination to get as close as I can.
     
  4. Nlelith

    Nlelith SS.org Regular

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    My Dc700 Floyd flatters even less than Kahler in this video. :wallbash: Might try to remove one spring though...
     
  5. Deadnightshade

    Deadnightshade U gonna eat that?

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    That's alright some Floyds just don't sugarcoat it, or don't want to say a good word to anybody because of their own self-esteem problems.
     
  6. Andless

    Andless SS.org Regular

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    Funny.... I just watched that video yesterday to see what the kahler is all about. Intrigued, but it kinda prompted me to stick with the OFR I'm used to. Or go fixed.
     
  7. decreebass

    decreebass ...Mulva?

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    One of the problems might be that it's a 7.

    I started a thread over at the EBMM forums about this. Trouble is, NO ONE seems to know or understand the physics behind the flutter. Should you use lighter gauge strings? Who knows. Less springs? More springs? NOBODY KNOWS FOR SURE.

    I was asking because while all my 7-string JPs have the flutter, honestly, they all suck even compared to the Kahler in that video. My question to the forum was returned with speculation, answers from people citing "it's simple physics" but unable to explain. You'd think that as long as the spring tension balances the string (the bridge flush with the body), when you whack it (lol) or dive a little and slide off (the slow whack) the tensions should balance and it should flutter. While this is indeed the case, it's NOTHING like the guitars in this guy's video.

    It's frustrating and I have no idea what in FACT makes the flutter or how to improve it.:wallbash:
     
  8. decreebass

    decreebass ...Mulva?

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    Seriously? No one knows? I guess this is the same reason the thread just died at the EBMM forums. I guess it either just works or doesn't - I suppose I'll have to accept that mine fall somewhere in between lol.
     
  9. Edika

    Edika SS.org Regular

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    If you see Hooke's law you will see that the equation is equal with F=kx, where x is the displacement caused by force F and k is the stifness of the spring. Since the springs are put in parallel in a Floyd they act as capasitors and the final k is the sum of the k's of the springs. Meaning kfin=k1+k2+k3. I am not taking into account of the V shape for putting springs because that complicates matters a bit. Strings also matter as their elasticity and thus vibration will contribute to the effect. So yes less springs and strings that can vibrate more (not necessarily lighter ones but they do help as they decrease the dampening factors) would give you more flutter. Not to sound smug but anyone with high school physics knowledge can figure this out.
     
  10. Andless

    Andless SS.org Regular

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    After reading this again gave it a try on my 7 with OFR. No flutter at all... (I'm on D'Addario XL 9-54).
     
  11. decreebass

    decreebass ...Mulva?

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    Also not to sound smug, but is this theoretical or do you have proof and experience that this works? Also, what is the TL:DR version? If I understand correctly, lighter gauge strings & fewer springs arranged straight equals better/more/longer flutter?

    When I spoke about the physics behind it, I wasn't looking for equations, though I appreciate that you took the time to write it out (though I suspect you're one of a miniscule minority on this forum that knows what the hell all that was that you wrote) but I need to be spoken to like I'm a child: so my question, hopefully more to the point this time, is:

    "Is there a way to make the flutter better/longer/deeper/etc. and how is this accomplished? No math, no anecdotes, no theory, no hearsay: Has anyone taken a guitar that had a mediocre flutter and done stuff to it to make it as stellar as the flutter in the above video? And if so, what did you do?"

    Again, not trying to be a d***, but it's incredibly frustrating that something like this should be such a mystery on multiple guitar forums lol :wallbash:
     
  12. trem licking

    trem licking SS.org Regular

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    light gauge strings with 3 springs, big heavy trem block and a tight whammy bar setting with the bar positioned parallel with the strings forward or backward. ibanez edge trems as well as floyds should do it fairly easily... i recall seeing even a fender trem as well as a prs trem flutter on videos before.
     
  13. Edika

    Edika SS.org Regular

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    Ah I didn't realize you wanted empirical evidence of people trying to improve the flutter of a guitar so I apologize. I haven't tried to so I can't comment more on that. The theory suggests that if you decrease the stiffness of springs it will decrease the dampening effect that makes them go to their original position quicker.
    What trem licking suggests is correct plus using two springs instead of three, since you'll also be using lighter gauge strings. The bigger block that has more mass will make the tremolo flutter more.
    Also you need to see areas that will prohibit/dampen movement. Well maintained knife edges on the pivot points will transfer energy to the springs better, so a Floyd system with hardened steel edges would flutter better. If your knife edges have gone dull and there is a way to sharpen them without damaging the bridge then this should help too.

    So to recap, light gauge strings, if possible two springs in parallel with low stifness, tight bar for better control and well maintained sharp edges on the Floyd.
     
  14. groverj3

    groverj3 Biologist/Guitarist

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    I've never needed to use more than three springs and that seems to be the sweet spot for getting a good flutter. I use 10s in standard, 10.5 in Eb, 11 in D, etc. I can balance it just fine with three springs in all those situations.
     
  15. Nlelith

    Nlelith SS.org Regular

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    Well, Floyd on my Carvin came with 3 springs, arrow shape. I'm going to change strings this week, and leave Floyd with 2 springs, parallel shape. I'll report if it made flutter any better or not.
     
  16. Edika

    Edika SS.org Regular

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    I don't know if 2 springs will be enough for a 7 string but putting them in a parallel formations should help. Springs used in OFR's (if this isn't a new model that has it) should help. I know people have reported that 7 string OFR's don't flutter as much as 6 string OFR's and the 3 springs minimum is a good explanation.

    Another reason I can thing that would diminish flutter would be how well the guitar is setup and how fresh the strings are. If you have strings being dampened by touching the strings (action too low or frets popping up) and if the strings are worn out. There might be some frequencies (aka notes) that might flutter more as they might come in sync with the frequency of the springs. I have a bit of noisy springs in some of my guitars and I have seen that they get louder with some notes and their harmonic frequencies. Those notes might flutter more than others.
     
  17. jvms

    jvms SS.org Regular

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    Does anyone know a way to make Kahlers float better?
     
  18. decreebass

    decreebass ...Mulva?

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    FYI, everyone, I emailed Ernie Ball and one of their techs got back to me with advice.

    and they replied:

    So I'm gonna give this a try and report back - probably with video evidence of the before and after. Might be a day or two so be patient :)
     
  19. decreebass

    decreebass ...Mulva?

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    Well, sad to say, no such luck. I switched to 9s and arranged the two springs in a V shape as directed. The flutter improved a little, but not dramatically. Quicktime was not playing nice with my Mac and Logitech webcam so no video, but suffice it to say it only got slightly better. I've just accepted that the flutter simply isn't/can't be as pronounced on a 7. I'm sure with practice and improved technique it can be better than it is now, but it's never gonna be like the above video.

    C'est la vie.
     
  20. eaeolian

    eaeolian Pictures of guitars I don't even own anymore! Super Moderator

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    I flutter mine on 10-59 XLs with four springs in the Floyd on my SLAT3-7 all the time. Do you have a Tremel-no? It really screwed up the flutter on Noodles' Floyd-equipped KXK with 3 springs and the same gauges.
     

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