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Discussion in 'Extended Range Guitars' started by HeHasTheJazzHands, Nov 7, 2015.
Was hoping to find something for sale, second hand even.
You’re not very good at the internet.
There’s not much to say. PRS rep told me when asked why we were getting PRS SE CU24’s made in Indonesia that WMI was becoming inconsistent and they were having to send too many back. Cort has been more consistent and better quality lately than the more recent WMI’s. That’s all I know.
We’ve got several of each here, and honestly you have to flip the headstock around to see where it’s made. Whether you like SE’s in the first place is up to you.
There are some 1000 made in Indo with 2017 serial at the same time there are 1000 with 2018 serials built in Korea, even some 400 from 18 if my memory doesn't fail me, so my guess it is more of a supply/demand issue and PRS rep telling that in order not to trigger "Korea better then Indo" issue
Both shops make an unheard of number of guitars and brands. As I understand it, Cort Indonesia are brands like Ibanez Premium and lower, G&L Tribute, all good stuff. World is Schecter, LTD, also good stuff.
At this point, I would consider the quality between the two interchangeable. Of course both factories have several sub-layers of quality and pricing points.
I worked with the Cort Korea factory way back in the 90s, coincidentally around when they first opened the Indonesian plant. At that time, of course Korean meant higher quality than Indonesia.
Today it’s not the case. If I were advising a friend which of two comparable guitars to buy and one was Cort and the other WMI, I would say they are absolutely interchangeable, and no need to belabor that point.
I feel like it depends entirely on the Brand and the actual factory. Lots of people hear Indo and think it's lower end, but it could be a very good Factory.
My MTD bass is made in China and it's a very well put together guitar. Where as China is known mainly for cheaper guitars and copies.
Totally removed from the thread topic, but Elysian makes some unreal pickups. Whatever your feelings are regarding the instruments, don't skip on checking out the pickups.
I think it’s been pretty civil actually. If you want to see a shitshow you need to look though the BRJ and Sherman threads back when shit started hitting the fan.
Not sure if some people were more invested in those brands, or maybe the average age of the forum membership was lower back then, but this thread has been way more tame. Way less name calling, personal attacks, or threats.
Those were completely different situations.
With BRJ, you had dozens of folks out of thousands of dollars. To my knowledge, all the customers in this case have been refunded.
Yeah, which is really cool. It's dejecting seeing so many luthiers go under and take customer's payments with them. Irrespective of how anyone feels about the parties involved, refunding customer deposits is a very smart business decision.
Highly underrated post.
While it's clear that Frank f*cked up in many aspects, Tosin trying to distance himself from guitars already in the market that quite literally have HIS name written on it is a little disingenuous to me.
His decisions as a business owner have been extremely poor, but hey, I totally get it. He's been on the receiving end of the biggest, most popular and most boundary-pushing guitar tech companies for years. Ibanez, EMG, Dimarzio, Seymour Duncan, Fishman, .strandberg*, Leqtique, Pro Tone, and only god knows how many accessories (strings, picks, etc.) and amplification companies have been hounding him for YEARS just so they can make some product that profits off of his name being slapped on it. He's been treated very well by these companies and I assume had zero visibility on their business model other than what he physically saw at the plants and offices, and the financial restrictions he worked with on his signature products.
So he starts a business with a reputable name, designs a product and markets the sh*t out of it. He puts in charge of production a relatively well-known name in the guitar industry, and after getting in a bunch of orders, basically throws a ton of money at him.
What then? Time passes over which seemingly Tosin heeds zero attention to what is happening in his business, and after an unspecified amount of time asks the head of production "where is my product?", to which said head of production says "sorry, I ran over costs multiple times and simply can't account for a pretty large amount of cash either".
In the simplest of terms, a business cannot be run this way. You cannot allocate a titanic amount of cash (for a business of this size) to a single person in the company and simply sit back to see it materialize into the desired product. There have to be controls, expenditures have to be monitored at all times, and not post facto, when the money has vanished and the products are lackluster. Tosin mentions that this was a red flag, but that's lunacy; this isn't a red flag, it's a complete, immediate stop in orders, production, everything. It is a fundamental and primary aim of a business owner not to allow their business to arrive to such a point, muchless immediately in the beginning.
To avoid any misunderstandings: I'm not blaming this situation on Tosin, but there is plenty of error on his end (albeit not malicious, simply out of ignorance). To me it seems like he's been used to throwing money at things to get results, which quite simply does not work in a business that requires its owner's constant, consistent attention. This is doubly true for a business lifting off the ground.
I'm assuming Frank will be taken to court and whatever conflicts (monies owed, design copyright, etc.) will be resolved. But I think this serves as a very, very good lesson in business and shows that even if your brand is reputable, even if your product is in high demand, all aspects of the business need to be very closely watched in order to avoid such situations unfolding.
The made in China Warwick basses are awesome. Not exactly inexpensive though.
Doesn't seem so.
That's how business works.
Those are quite ridiculous accusations, how would you know?
I mean, yeah, there was probably some inattentiveness from an outside supervision standpoint, but if you a guitar player that doesn't build guitars, and someone builds you a guitar/prototype that meets all your quality requirements, and the builder says they can accommodate x number of equal-quality builds in x amount of time, why would you think you NEED to micromanage that? I can see WANTING to micromanage it, but if you're touring, working on other income streams, etc, you'ld take a person on their word if you deemed them trustworthy. The problem in these situations is always someone who is a great talker and can drag out allowing their mouth to write checks their ass can't cash until they get audited in some fashion. I'm sure when they started Tosin felt like he had no reason NOT to trust what was being told to him, for various reasons. Unfortunately in business its better to be kind of a pain in the ass and keep everyone on track and accountable then to treat everyone like your friend.
ITT: Increasingly wild speculation with decreasingly valid information.
I don't mean to add fuel to the fire, but based on the evidence that we have at the moment, I'm going to apply Hanlon's razor to the situation. I don't think, according to the allegations, Frank took the money with intent to embezzle rather he's just terrible at estimating costs/resource allocation combined with bad management as arsonist suggested. That said, the alleged inability to provide receipts or other accounting related things, combined with shoddily delivered products is inexcusable no matter who is responsible. I hope both parties can take this to court and come to an agreement quickly and peacefully so that they can continue to go on with their dealings. If anything, as arsonist mentioned, this should be a huge wake up call for both parties with regards to running a business
Signed: The Law Firm of Seven, String and Org.
Speaking of The Law Firm of Seven, String, and Org., even though this is off topic, can someone point me in the direction of what is wrong with Kiesel? I was planning to buy a headless a few months ago and someone here told me not to go with Kiesel but I never found out why because I didn't really consider buying from them in the first place. If you could point me in the direction of this VIK and other drama threads, I'd greatly appreciate it
Here you go: http://www.sevenstring.org/threads/kiesel-never-again.320132/
I think a good short summary is
Jeff Kiesel has bad customer service/relations and some sketchy practices at times (like the stolen-showroom-please-buy-guitars-now incident).
The brand has several non-returnable options that sometimes get you stuck with a guitar should something be wrong (like the rawtone finish, etc).
They have fixed plenty of people's guitars though who did have issues,
not a huge percentage of people even have issues,
and you don't have to deal with Jeff himself usually I don't think if you're just doing a normal order.
I spec'd mine out using the builder but I need to make the sure the headstock matched the body and it didn't explicitly state it so I called them and Chris answered and got me invoiced.
Yes, I want to specifically state that, even though I wasn't happy with the communication, I was very happy with the refund from my Abasi order. I really appreciate Tosin stepping up to the plate to make sure none of the customers were financially harmed.