Microtonal metal?

Discussion in 'General Music Discussion' started by The Omega Cluster, Jun 29, 2012.

  1. ixlramp

    ixlramp SS.org Regular

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    Yes 31EDO is fairly close but it's not Just Intonation, same with 72EDO.

    I don't mean to imply TT are misleading people, they aren't, they're just not particularly technical upfront on their site, which is understandable for their recent more commercial and mainstream approach. Only other people are doing the misleading through misunderstanding, not maliciously. So i don't think TT deserve contempt, they sell genuine Well-Temperament frettings that few people understand.
     
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  2. ixlramp

    ixlramp SS.org Regular

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    That video by Ola Englund is funny 'perfect intonation all over the fretboard' is not what TT is about, and can be done on a normal guitar by setting saddle offsets correctly. Maybe he was just hearing common-key triads being closer to JI and mistaking that for 'good intonation'?

    Guitarists have good ears for tuning and hear the inherently out-of-tune intervals of 12ET. Distortion makes the mistuning more obvious. Some guitarists will bend individual notes to make the chord perfectly tuned.
    The irony is that what they think of as out of tune is actually perfectly tuned 12ET, while the perfectly tuned chords they are after is actually out of tune with 12ET and other instruments. No surprise many are confused.
     
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  3. Winspear

    Winspear Tom Winspear

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    Couldn't have put it better, that's exactly what I think is going on. It's hard to know when people talk about "guitars being an imperfect instrument and not intonating right" whether they are talking about not being able to get a good setup that hits 12EDO properly, or whether they are using their ears and wanting to deviate from 12EDO.
     
  4. ixlramp

    ixlramp SS.org Regular

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    Just looked through their site again, especially the FAQ.

    "What we mean by TRUE TEMPERAMENT™ is that our fretting system will give you super-accurate intonation over the whole fingerboard in the temperament it is constructed for."

    They then explain how they are using per-fret fret offsets to improve intonation for whatever temperament is intended, which sounds like they have systems for 12ET and Well-Temperaments (such as Thidell Formula 1). A few years ago the site did actually detail mutliple well-temperament systems, now they only mention Thidell formula 1 and a 'low tune' version of that, maybe more details are given when you contact them, they do say to contact by email to order.

    They present per-fret offsets as the main feature of TT, and don't go into much detail about Thidell Formual 1 being a Well-Temperament, the only detail is in the 'How to tune Thidell formula 1' section.

    I do agree with Winspear that per-fret offsets seem somewhat overkill to perfect a certain tonal system, it will be more accurate yes but i feel that saddle offset gets close enough considering the inherent pitch variation of a guitar in use. A compensated nut (Earvana etc.) also helps. Also of course ironically 12ET is inherently out of tune anyway.
    The expense and loss of ability to use different tunings and different gauges makes it seem not worth it to me.

    I guess it may be possible that some guitarists are using a Well Temperament version, hearing the chords being closer to JI, and misunderstanding that as the guitar being more perfectly intonated to 12ET.
     
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  5. The Omega Cluster

    The Omega Cluster n00b

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    Since TT is a form of JI/WT, what is its tonal centre? Is it made to sound good on E, A?
     
  6. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    Gmajor, Amajor and Dmajor are the best major scales and triads, and Em, F#m, and C#m are the best minor scales and triads.
    Bbmajor, Ebmajor, and Abmajor are the worst major scales and triads, and Gm, Cm, and Dm are the worst minor scales and triads.
    The rest are somewhere in between.

    It works well, because, really, how often do we play rock and roll/metal songs on guitar in Bb, Eb, or Ab, unless you are tuned down a half step? In jazz, though, it'd be a nightmare, since, well, those are the three most comfortable keys for brass to play.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2018
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  7. ixlramp

    ixlramp SS.org Regular

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    Jack Tickner.



    https://jacktickner.bandcamp.com/

    "Interested in Just Intonation and 22 tone scales, Jack made his own scale which he named ‘Whirlwind’. Based on the 1-3-7-11 harmonics."

    IMG_3066-3quartcrop.jpg
     
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  8. ixlramp

    ixlramp SS.org Regular

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  9. Winspear

    Winspear Tom Winspear

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    Check out the chart I posted on the previous page :)
     
  10. ixlramp

    ixlramp SS.org Regular

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    Relevant to the discussion on guitar intonation and temperament, here 2 videos by someone who really knows what they are talking about, very informative:


    And his opinion on TT in the comments is:

    "Without getting in to a chapter of specifics, I would say that on the surface it appears more or less based on reasonable concepts of practical (yet unequal) temperaments specific for common guitar chords. Unfortunately, it seems to have sourced it's offsets on data from less than ideal setups. I recognize many of the errors they are trying to correct for, but I recognize them as common results of common setup errors. In a properly setup instrument, their corrections would be far overshooting what I would consider beneficial.

    It is also by nature a broad generalization of offsets based on averages. In reality, a set of D'Addario, vs Thomastik, vs DR, vs Cleartone, would each require significantly different offsets, not to mention nuances to the rest of the guitar chassis resonances, setup, the player's style, etc. A generic set of averaged offsets means it will be perfect for none.

    Again though, I see the whole effort as completely unnecessary, and from a historical context is no different from what others have "discovered" or "invented" every few decades over the last few hundred years. The more you learn about the compromises within 12TET and its embodiment in the guitar, the more you can see why these systems never really took off before.

    But I'm sure some love it, and it works for their needs, and it's great that they're making this available for them. By and large though, I see it as being a bandaid for symptoms rather than a solution for problems, and trying to sweep the unsolvable problems under the rug."
     
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  11. Winspear

    Winspear Tom Winspear

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    Thanks for sharing all that! I've been wanting to see videos this detailed for a long time. Very useful. Nice to see somebody somewhat debunking compensated nuts with the same logic as I have felt
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2018
  12. ixlramp

    ixlramp SS.org Regular

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    After our discussion i watched some TT videos to reassess. Found one by Mattias Eklundh, another high-profile proponent of TT which is again misleading, as is the one by Steve Vai and almost every one i can find.

    If the intent is to have a Well Temperament guitar then TT can provide a few different systems (according to their old website), this makes sense and the fret offsets are necessary.

    If the intent is to get closer to 12ET, as i suspect is the wish of most users of TT, then TT seems overkill and restrictive. It will be effective but only with a certain height of nut, a particular string type, a certain set of gauges and a certain tuning. A low-cut nut and good setup will be almost as effective but much cheaper and with no restrictions on nut height, string type, gauges or tuning.

    The 'Thidell Formula 1' Well Temperament seems to have the noticeably offset frets, and the users of TT seem to have the same system, could be wrong but visually it looks that way. I expect the TT fretting for perfect 12ET would have less extreme offsets since it no longer has the +-4 cent Well Temperament offsets and only needs to correct very small (1-2 cent) errors.
    So i wonder if the proponents are using the WT version or the 12ET version? none seem to explain this but hint that the guitar is 'perfectly intonated' which suggests they think it is perfect 12ET, when it may be possible they chose the WT version through playing it and liking it without understanding it.

    I also notice videos combining TT with Evertune, calling it the ultimate combination. I also consider Evertune somewhat effective but problematic, over-hyped ("the guitar never goes out of tune" .. erm ok), expensive and somewhat overkill.
     
  13. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    Can anyone explain how offsets based on string manufacture techniques are corrected fret by fret by seemingly randomly varying amounts and not by nut compensation?
     
  14. The Omega Cluster

    The Omega Cluster n00b

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    I just premiered an amazing new song from Russian microtonal experimental rockers uSSSy. Check it out here!

     
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  15. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    That was fantastic!
     
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  16. The Omega Cluster

    The Omega Cluster n00b

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    The whole album is absolutely wonderful! Their best, if you ask me.
     
  17. Winspear

    Winspear Tom Winspear

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    I imagine it's because nut compensation is focused on the extreme depressions occurring at the nut when the nut is cut too high as explain in the video, and that is a non perfect solution that doesn't work for higher up the fretboard. I guess if the nut is cut too high, the displacement and tension/pitch changes at various parts of the fretboard will all be different?

    That song was great indeed!
     
  18. InHiding

    InHiding SS.org Regular

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    I'm sort of glad my ears aren't as picky as some people's seem to be. Is it even possible to enjoy music at all when basically everything you hear is always partially out of tune or "wrong". I mean even fingering force alters the tuning. Would be hell to constantly hear every little aspect that is "off". I guess to solution is to listen to midi music... (P.S. Not trying to pick a fight).
     
  19. ixlramp

    ixlramp SS.org Regular

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    If the fret offsets look random it may be because you're looking at Well Tempered TT frets that do have note-to-note varying offsets from 12ET?
    I expect that even for 'perfect 12ET' TT fretting a compensated nut would not be good enough for TT's standards.
    I also agree that saddle and nut offsets alone are not absolutely perfectionist for correcting each note according to string gauge and type.
    InHiding i agree.
     
  20. Winspear

    Winspear Tom Winspear

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    I definitely face the issue more as a creator than a consumer. I enjoy how beautiful pure intervals are when I hear them, but no, I'm not at all dissatisfied listening to 12EDO music so long as the intonation is good to 12EDO. Bare in mind however the efforts some artists go to to record, that you may not know about. Tuning the guitar differently for various chords and various parts of the song. Pitch correcting in post production. Stuff like that. Wanting Evertune bridges and TT frets (even if they don't understand them) and such. But yeah, for the most part the difference isn't huge.

    As a creator though, I most definitely am aware. I play lots of minor and major third chords on high gain, often in quite low tunings. That ~12 cents adjustment to the thirds can be the difference between mud and something beautiful. It's an audible but not huge difference to an individual note, but together, especially with distortion, it's huge. I played happily for years normally, but it's one of those things that is really hard to unhear, as mentioned in the video above. Damn right I'm putting effort into my music now to get it as close to 'midi music' as possible haha (even MIDI is 12EDO usually though!). I look forward to actually being able to explore these tunings physically on a guitar with more ease though, rather than it being more of a post-production thing. That's most of the excitement for me. There is the desire to seek a more perfect sound, but the fun part lies in realising that 12EDO is just one incredibly limited and not particularly exciting option for making music.
     

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