Metallica "soft" years because of Kirk & Lars?

Discussion in 'General Music Discussion' started by possumkiller, Feb 6, 2018.

  1. Dawn of the Shred

    Dawn of the Shred Blackened Tech Death Metal

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    For me and it’s just my opinion but Justice is by far the best from Metallica. If it had a good guitar sound, good bass and drums, I honestly think people would regard it as much as they do Puppets. As soon as Metallica got with Bob Rock things changed. I remember the first time I heard the Black album, I said that’s different..... but when I heard Load/Reload I said that doesn’t sound like Metallica!!

    Since then they sound like a band who’s trying to sound like well, what the used to sound like.
     
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  2. Dawn of the Shred

    Dawn of the Shred Blackened Tech Death Metal

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    Double post
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2018
  3. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    ^ I really enjoy how those two responses contrast :lol:
     
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  4. spudmunkey

    spudmunkey SS.org Regular

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    This, 1000 times this. The orchestra always felt like they were, like 1/4 of a beat behind. It drives me bonkers every time I hear it.
     
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  5. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    Up to a point, I tend to look at any recording as the sum of it's parts- including the production. Even if songs are written really well, I can't look past the production when considering the product as a whole. Something about "I really like this music, except for the way it sounds" doesn't work for me personally. It's like saying "I think I would like this, if it was actually any good".

    I do get it though - production nitpicks aside, Metallica is iconic for a reason. That reason has just never been their "stellar" mixes.
     
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  6. possumkiller

    possumkiller Custom Title:

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    I honestly like the sound of their garage days recordings way better than any of the studio album tones.

    But yeah I think Michael Kamen maybe wasn't the best choice. Instead of enhancing the songs and creating badass symphonic thrash metal he just tried to completely take over the songs with the orchestra. The whole time it seems like the band and the orchestra are fighting for the spotlight.
     
  7. wat

    wat SS.org Regular

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    I always liked S&M and the chaotic, "sensory overload" approach.
     
  8. Vyn

    Vyn Not a Sparkly Vampire Contributor

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    S&M was wicked. Puppets with a full orchestra is jizz worthy.
     
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  9. KailM

    KailM SS.org Regular

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    Agreed. I consider it their strongest work. I got into them with the Black album (I was about 11 years old then), but then I backtracked and looked into their older material. I can't remember if it was Master or Justice first, but once I delved into those albums it was like "yeah, this is the shit."

    I've said this before, but people are WAY TOO HUNG UP ON PRODUCTION VALUE these days. Justice has this grim rawness to it. I love it.
     
  10. mongey

    mongey SS.org Regular

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    its a different conversation but I disagree. they are close but MoP wins for me

    battery is a better opener than blackened
    I like the song master of puppets better than AJFA
    middle tracks are a tie apart from One which is just so epic
    but I have always really liked leper messiah
    orion slays way more than to live is to die
    and I like damage inc more than dyers eve. I am biased on that one cause it was the opener for whiskey 2 snow.skate vid that 1 have watched about 3000 times
     
  11. extendedsolo

    extendedsolo SS.org Regular

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    I just came here to say that Some Kind of Monster was amazing. Very few rock documentaries want to paint your favorite band as a bunch of fucking idiots who have no idea what they are doing. Most exist to just essentially suck off the band or gloss over the crappier parts of the band. It was incredibly interesting and a breath of fresh air to see this band in incredible turmoil and on the verge of breaking up. To put that out was a super ballsy move because who wants to see their heros looking like a bunch of fools? I'll always associate St Anger with that time metallica almost broke up and had their therapist trying to write lyrics. I think the last two albums are fine, but St Anger is way more memorable of a time in their history for better or for worse than anything since. It kinda reminds me of Anvil the movie.
     
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  12. KnightBrolaire

    KnightBrolaire ERG hoarder

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    I like to pretend everything after the black album (other than the symphonic stuff) doesn't exist. Load and Reload are passable, but st. anger and death magnetic are terrible imo. Hardwired was pretty solid.
    if I had a top 5 list it'd probably go
    1. Master of Puppets
    2. Ride the Lightning
    3. Kill Em All
    4. And Justice For All
    5. Black Album
     
  13. EmaDaCuz

    EmaDaCuz Brutal yet soulful

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    Never been a big fan of Metallica, I never understood their music. I can't think of any reason why a metalhead would prefer old-Metallica to old-Slayer, for example. But that is not the point. Having said that, I kind of like "Kill 'em all" for its genuinely aggressive approach, and "Master of puppets". Their "newer"albums are, in my opinion, better than some classics, with an overall more coherent song writing. From St. Anger on, I would rather not comment.

    My top 5
    1. Kill Em All
    2. Master of Puppets
    3. ReLoad
    4. Black Album
    5. Ride the Lightning/Load ex aequo
     
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  14. Rizzo

    Rizzo SS.org Regular

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    This. Since I started to get an interest in music production, I broadened my views and began seeing all music as more or less calculated works of art being the sum of all of their artistic, technical, commercial and socio-cultural components.

    It can never be "Metallica's fault" nor anyone's "fault" for getting through that rock period, of course they would spend their own time, budget and energy making albums that they weren't ok with? Errr. Also, they're human and they can't be the same and feel the same at 18 as at 40 so good luck with waiting for another MOP. The lack of inspiration was, I guess, probably caused by not feeling at home anymore with doing metal music, and that would be totally understandable. If anything, I would compliment them for having the bravery to change their style and do their own thing, in spite of the market or general expectations.

    This being said, if OP had seen even the first 10 minutes of Some Kind of Monster, which BTW is not a "crybaby feely touchy thing" but just the portrait of a bunch of music professionals on the verge of a career and mental breakdown (sorry I'm not 12 anymore and I can appreciate the balls and honesty in portraing that. They "just" felt the weight of the expectations of being the most popular heavy band in the world plus dealing with a midlife crisis, you know, easy stuff!), it would have been clear that no one is blaming no one else. James and Bob Rock say that while on the first albums they had hard "rules" (ex. James writes the riffs and vocal lines and no discussion allowed, same for Lars with drums, same with Kirk's solos etc.) which by the way exacerbated relationships because of the hard lines in the creative process, from the post-Black Album era (or even just from St. Anger on? Can't remember exactly) they had a collaborative "everyone can step in on anything" approach, which has proven way better for their creative flow.

    Also they were constantly criticizing themselves even in St. Anger saying "there's nothing great here" or "this isn't going anywhere",they dind't really go with the flow so much, but producer Rock encouraged them in giving value to even the smallest idea and at the end of the day, they got an album worth of stuff (I actually don't agree on this, maybe he/they could have been less condescending in that aspect and we'd have had a better collection of songs).

    That being said I guess you can't blame the creative process for an uninspired album, sometimes ideas are just not there. Especially in a "dark ages" kind of time in your life when you don't believe in your artistic vision and career path anymore. So I'd say no one's to blame, it just happened.
     
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  15. Edika

    Edika SS.org Regular

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    Speaking about Metallica will always bring a discussion of past vs new albums and how they're not what they used which makes sense. It was a really influential band that shaped thrash to what it became. Most metalheads from that era picked up a guitar to learn to play like Hetfield and probably considered Hammet one of the best lead guitarists ever.

    Regardless of the fact that their first albums are musically great I feel it also has to do with the nostalgia factor as most of us were at our early teens when we were exposed to them. Their Load and Reload album and even Black Album was such a big departure from what Metallica was that most of the fans felt I dare say betrayed. The emotional investment was that strong. Because aside from the music itself Metallica's lyrics were always good and had to do with serious subjects "rebelling" in a sense against the norm.

    I can also understand how a lot of younger metal listeners don't see the appeal in terms of production and music. If you see what's out there today of course it sounds dated and a comparison is immediately drawn. It was like when older metal heads and rock listeners would praise Black Sabbath, Saxon, Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin and other big names and I would not get the appeal. I was like "oh the production is weak, the music is simple(r)" etc etc all the things you'd hear from younger generation of listeners for bands I grew up with.

    In any case when Load and Reload came out it was an instant dislike for me. I didn't even give the records a chance. Metallica meant that much to me, which in retrospect is a completely idiotic notion but younger me thought some pretty stupid stuff. I'd actually would like to listen to them again and see if like them. My faves from Metallica are Master of Puppets, AJFA, Ride the Lightning and Black Album. I never could get into Kill them All as it was too raw sounding for my tastes. St. Anger I think that James trying to sing annoys me more than the trash cans Lars was using as drums.
     
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  16. The Mirror

    The Mirror SS.org Regular

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    Wait. Is this still about the interview? Do we have a Metallica megathread? If not, why don't we?

    It seems like people can still talk pages about that band. Instead of going OT in every single thread concerning Metallica maybe one should be started?
     
  17. Bloody_Inferno

    Bloody_Inferno Silence is Violence

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    I'm somewhat surprised with the posts with Kill Em All being rated higher than Justice. Justice was Metallica's peak of sophistication in terms of songwriting (though to the point of excessiveness), from the great 1 2 3 thrash assault beginning with Lightning. Though I do understand it's rawness being an appeal, but then again I also rate Testament's The New Order over The Legacy (and Preach too) for the same reasons.

    Either way, those first 4 Metallica albums are untouchable.

    EDIT: Regarding the OP, I do remember an interview with Lars and Kirk during the Load to Reload era where Lars said "I wouldn't be surprised if our next record would sound like the Spice Girls". At the time it baffled me but then again he may have just been disingenuous.
     
  18. iamaom

    iamaom SS.org Regular

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    ????
     
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  19. possumkiller

    possumkiller Custom Title:

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    I definitely think that Justice was the peak of their technical ability (especially Kirks). I just don't like the tones. The previous albums had a more full sound.
     
  20. gnoll

    gnoll SS.org Regular

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    Justice is just a bit too boring for me to rate it higher. It's got a couple of songs that feel pretty filler and make the album drag on. I still like it, just not as much as the first 3. KEA is more consistant, keeping its lovely raw thrash feel going throughout.

    And for me, no other Testament album can touch The Legacy. The only one that comes close-ish is The New Order. Buuut I am also (or was at least) a huge thrash nerd that doesn't like it when things get too progressive or mid-paced.
     

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