Is Trump really gonna get there ?

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by mongey, Mar 2, 2016.

  1. vilk

    vilk Very Regular

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    This kind of highlights my point: irrespective of whether or not Trump himself is deemed to be racist or not, his policies are targeting Muslims and Latinos.

    Likewise, I imagine that there are many a mildly or secretly racist democratic congressman that does not advocate or vote for racist legislature, to which I say: Then who cares if on the inside he's racist, if on the outside he isn't?

    That's a rhetorical question. I mean I understand the sort of principle reasons for which someone might object to a racist in charge of legislating. But what I'm trying to say is that maybe sometimes the better measure of racism is action and not intention.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
  2. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    ...except, I think pretty clearly it matters why someone's doing something. Basically, if the discrimination against a group is a bug, or if it's a feature.

    Though, let's be honest. Right now, there's really no plausible way to argue that Trump's not deeply racist. There were "many fine people" who marched with white nationalists in Charlottesville, we need a wall to protect ourselves from Mexican murderers and rapists and drug dealers, the Muslim ban is necessary to protect America from terrorists until we think of a long term way to handle "this Muslim thing," we need fewer immigrants from "shithole countries" like the Dominican Republic and more from "nice" countries like Norway, etc etc etc.

    The only reason it matters that Trump was advertising in the NY Times back in '89 to reinstate the death penalty because five young black men were falsely accused of a rape, is that it suggests he might have been quietly racist for at least the past 30 years, before he became publicly racist during the Obama administration.
     
  3. vilk

    vilk Very Regular

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    I'm saying sometimes it's the same difference. What's a bug to some might even be a feature to others. In fact I was pretty sure that a lot of legislation is purposely made with "bugs" so that they can pass it while it looks like they're passing something else.

    I'm not saying intention doesn't matter at all. But as an example, if someone voted through some legislation for totally racist reasons, but the effect is benevolent to everyone irrespective of race (and for the same of argument affects all races totally equally), does it still clearly matter why he voted to pass it?
     
  4. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    Is anyone arguing that it's a bug?!

    Maybe the people in my circle are skewed politically, but I know plenty of folks Trump's age who are appalled at some of the racist things he's said.

    Also, different subject matter, but this: http://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...restricting-choices-for-food-stamp-recipients

    I read this and got my hopes up that it was something halfway logical, like something to encourage healthier habits somehow, but no, this is pretty much the polar opposite of what I had hoped to see, and I was unsurprised that my hopes were dashed.

    I think we are nearing the most dangerous part of the Trump presidency. This is the new normal, and he's pushing into deeper territory. As more and more bullshit policies are proposed and debated by the media, our bar will drop, I suspect. Next thing you know, bullshit we would have perceived as extreme a year ago will be perceived as mild bullshit next year, and so more bullshit overall makes it through legislation. It's a phenomenon called "creeping normality," and I think the time to fight against it is now.
     
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  5. Randy

    Randy Ooh, Degrasse Tyson-son Super Moderator

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    With all due respect, you're talking yourself in circles. I'm sure you could come up with a scenario where being a pedophile helps you find the cure for cancer, but that's just a heavily manufactured scenario that doesn't fit the overarching point. I mean, I get where you're coming from but your arguments sound more like marrying yourself to your original statements for the sake of not being wrong, rather than evolving or accepting alternatives based on the realities of it. :2c:

    The fact is being a racist makes you pre-disposed to making negatively racially biased decisions. I'm obsessed with the concept of objective and subjective decision making. Objective decision making happens in scenarios where on is divorced from their biases, which in and of itself is reflective of a LACK of bias, as it means choosing solutions that are best for the most involved, despite whether or not that's directly reflective of your personal views on the subject.

    When you make decisions on items that CAN be heavily effected by bias and you're someone that harbors that bias, you're prone to making decision that aren't objectively sound, but quell your emotional attachments to the subject. I agree with the point that "doing > thinking" regarding biases, but the two are inextricably connected.

    When you're talking about a job like the President of the United States, you're talking about the leader of a representative democracy. If you harbor biases and you're tasked with writing policy and managing/administering programs to those same people which you harbor a bias toward, of course it's going to effect outcomes.
     
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  6. vilk

    vilk Very Regular

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    I definitely agree with what you're saying, and I tried to express before that of course I understand the principle reasons why someone would object to a racist making important decisions--I meant to imply that I understand there is pre-disposition and biases that will in some way affect the decision making.


    that "doing > thinking" basically was my only point. I can't really marry myself to my opinion in avoidance of being wrong because ultimately it's a subjective matter. To someone, having racist thoughts might be considered worse than doing racist things absent racist thoughts. But not to most people... I think?


    While being a pedophile will most likely not lead to a cure for cancer, I do genuinely think there are plenty of racist politicians who have the decency to avoid passing racist legislation, if only out of fear of losing votes. To which I say, "I'll take it."
     
  7. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    In the context of Trump's presidency, though, I really don't know if he would stop himself from doing/saying racist things in order to improve his approval rating, FWIW. In fact, it doesn't seem like he really cares at all about public opinion, which, ironically, seems to galvanize a small portion of his support base in supporting him. Generally speaking, since we get one president to represent the entire US population, I would ideally like to see a president who can stick to his principles on long term strategies, but overall has the public interest as his #1 priority overall. Trump might just tick that first box, but I'm not even convinced of that, seeing as how he actually has flip-flopped on a few issues, but he really has made widely known that he does not care about his approval ratings and so forth, dismissing any statistics he doesn't like as "fake news," or whatever.

    If we somehow get stuck with this border wall, it's going to be a total disaster. I don't think people really want the border wall. According to polls, people want DACA (about 8 to 1) and do not want a border wall (almost 2 to 1), yet this looks like what we'll get regardless.
     
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  8. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    I disagree... I think if Trump draws a line in the sand and refuses to sign anything other than his "four pillars" approach to immigration (citizenship for Dreamers, border wall, elimination of the visa lottery and reduction in number of immigrants allowed in a year, and elimitation of most family-based "chain immigration"), then the far more likely outcome isn't we get a wall, it's we don't get an immigration bill.

    DACA is popular with most Democrats and a majority of Republicans, so there's an outside chance whatever comes out of the Senate makes it out of the House and to Trump's desk and he actually signs it... But, I don't see the Democrats (or the moderate Republicans) accepting radical reductions in legal immigration just to provide a legal status for the Dreamers. Yes, it sucks what Trump is about to do to them, but there are about three quarters of a million Dreamers in this country, and as part of his plan Trump is looking to restrict legal immigration by about a half million a year in return for a path to citizenship for Dreamers. Honestly, by signing that, you would hurt far more people than you would help. It's not really a viable compromise, and I'm pretty sure Trump knows that.
     
  9. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    With which part did you disagree?
     
  10. vilk

    vilk Very Regular

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    While I agree that canned fruits and vegetables is often less desirable than fresh fruits and vegetables, it does have a much longer shelf life and reduces waste. I'm sure the nutrition of canned fruits and veggies might be partially lost in the preparation process, but surely the nutritional value isn't totally eliminated.

    TBH, when considering data on dietary habits of the poor, the total failure of public education in poor neighborhoods coupled with the dismal standards we as a country have for nutritional education (and just nutrition and wellness in general)... I actually do kinda see this system theoretically improving the diets of SNAP recipients.

    Like, I understand how it's shitty to try and tell people what to eat according to what could be perceived as a disciplinary action for having been born poor... but like then again, I feel saddened when I see kids eating takis and mountain dew for lunch (I live next to a corner store)... or like, some of the people I work with who I know came from poor families... I can't imagine how their pallets were ever trained to eat like this. Microwave pizza rolls, every day? What? A can of tuna and peach slices in water may seem like a lousy lunch to many of us... but really it is better for you than what many people are eating instead.

    I guess diet and wellness in America is kind of a larger issue. But what I wanted to ask is: Why Bostjan did you say that this plan is the opposite of encouraging healthier habits? I didn't pick that up when I was reading through the article.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
  11. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    I'm thinking that canned foods, peanut butter, sugary cereals, and pasta would be less healthy than what people on SNAP would typically eat. Perhaps I was wrong, though. I live in an area where roughly one in five residents is on SNAP, and I'm often accosted by people hoping I will exchange money, booze, or drugs (I guess because I have long hair?) for EBT cards.

    I'd rather see some healthier meals than this in those SNAP packages, but after some reflection, maybe this is not as bad as it seems on the surface. Chef Boyardee Beefaroni and Lucky Charms is probably ten times better than a diet of Bud Light and Marlboros.
     
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  12. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    I have zero faith in this administration providing healthy, good tasting, nourishing food in these packages. Zero.

    It's going to be cheap, processed bullshit made to the lowest standards by one of his administration's shithead friends at an outsized profit.
     
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  13. vilk

    vilk Very Regular

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    You're right that does seem just like the Trump way
     
  14. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    I agree, that's idiotic.

    Locally, my city raises money to honor SNAP benefits 2:1 at our local farmer's market, so right off the bat this will be hurting SNAP recipients in my community.
     
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  15. Randy

    Randy Ooh, Degrasse Tyson-son Super Moderator

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    If Donald Trump menswear is any indication. My dad bought a Donald Trump dress shirt around the time of the election as a novelty and the holes for the cufflinks were on the top of the sleeves :lol:

    Also, I know everybody has their horror stories about seeing people abuse the SNAP/EBT program but it's exactly that, an abuse. They got really big on cracking down on food stamp/medicaid abuse locally (both users and suppliers) and they did a huge raid in a small local town where it as prevalent. One place where they busted the owner was because they sold the person two prepared hot dogs, a small bag of dog food and cough drops. The guy went to jail for that.

    Likewise, people complain about people on social services as being lazy and unmotivated and that there's no programs to get people to "life themselves out of poverty". Bullshit. I know a woman that works for DSS, and they specifically make people on certain welfare programs take programs to try and get their life back on track. She teaches a class about mindfulness and having a work ethic and managing the problems in your life, and it's mandatory. People come in with all their stories about who they owe child support to, not having a car to be able to go to work, etc. and she works with them to make a roadmap on how to manage it and get their life together, and eventually get a job. I know of several similar programs.

    All that the Trump proposed programs do is further marginalize people who are buried underneath piles of difficult to traverse life problems; yes, some of them of their own doing but people make mistakes and often times even ONE of those items would cripple any of us that consider ourselves "functional". I don't believe in victimhood, I believe in "giving people a hand up, instead of a hand out" but NONE of what Trump's proposed for social safety net programs accomplish that; they're punishments, nothing more, nothing less.

    Also, worth mentioning... if you're going incentivise "lazy people" to contribute more to society, sending them their food in the mail as opposed to them having to go to the story to get it isn't the first approach I'd take. My friend and I frequently describe political beliefs as a circle as opposed to a simple 'left and right'; essentially when you go so far to one side, you begin to pop up on the end of the scale. It's funny to me that Trump and his supporters are free market capitalists, yet their solution is to go from giving people the "money" to go out into the marketplace, choose their vendor and choose the product to instead handing them the product directly with no choice, no contribution to the local economy. For someone so staunchly capitalistic, that sure sounds a lot like a "bread line".
     
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  16. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    Missed this - that we're likely to get a wall. I think it's far more likely either DACA expires without an immigration biill, or possibly that the legal challenge that, last I heard, was still working its way through the courts, that Trump's argument that he was letting DACA lapse because Obama didn't have the constitutional authority to enact it wasn't actually correct succeeds, but that just means he'll have to re-end the program so that's probably only a temporary stay.
     
  17. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    Well, it's probably a mix of good and bad ideas. The expectation here, which I would not bet against at any odds, is that the changes are going to be poorly executed, which is just going to make a huge mess that someone will have to try to clean up.

    Sending people their food or delivering it through some government agency might actually not be a bad idea overall. People with little to no money don't need to be hauling groceries around, riding the bus or tram or operating a car. I think that's not a bad idea. Making sure that people who need food assistance are actually getting (healthy*) food instead of abusing the system to get bottles of booze and baggies of weed is also a step in the right direction, in theory.

    I've personally never (so far) needed food assistance, but I have, on maybe two occasions, been very glad it would be there if I needed it. I feel like I've not really made any bad life decisions. I was born well below the poverty line in one of the poorest cities in the USA, but I worked hard in school and I did a lot of volunteering so I could get a job as soon as I could, worked my way through seven years at University, and managed to take an advanced degree without crippling student loans. But then I broke my arm while Bush was president and I lost my job as a result and I was left up a creek in a canoe full of tens of thousands of dollars in medical debt. But, miraculously, I recovered from that and here I am now, not doing too bad with a roof over my head and a good job.

    I feel that I've done much better for myself than most people, yet I really don't think it takes making bad life decisions to land you in financial danger. In fact, I feel pretty strongly about that, having been on the cusp myself for what I felt was no fault of my own.

    Anyway...

    If they are going to send people food for SNAP benefit fullfillment, it might as well be healthy foods or at least something with the facade of healthy food and not what the article described. "Let them eat beefaroni," Trump says to the masses starving outside the White House in deep urban Washington DC, while he sprays himself with fake tan and sips his covfefe or whatever. It truly sounds like a farce of pre-revolutionary Paris. :(
     
  18. narad

    narad SS.org Regular

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    Removing the personal freedom of at least being able to choose your own food with foodstamps reminds me a bit of the Seinfeld "Top of the Muffin, to You!" episode and their strategy of pawning the muffin bottoms off to the homeless.
     
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  19. Randy

    Randy Ooh, Degrasse Tyson-son Super Moderator

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    This is the guy that should determine what's a healthy diet for people :yesway:

    I love that that people who have been advocating for cutting every program that benefits poor people to near or literally zero are the right people to decide what's the healthiest ways to help them going forward.

    I said it in another thread (actually may have been earlier in this same thread) but to paraphrase, I can understand being disenfranchised by status quo and wanting to try something different. But "anything that's different, for the sake of being different" is dangerous territory. "I'm tired of having chicken for dinner so I'm going to have pork, because it's different" is a different rationale than "I'm tired of chicken so I'm going to eat a car battery because it's also different".

    There's welfare abuse, there's an over reliance on social programs for the long term from some individuals, but I find those to be issues handled in adjustments in inches, not in miles. Also, call it classist of me but I trust the top administrator of social programs being a person with a background in community organization over a full overhaul from a wealthy real estate magnate. YMMV
     
  20. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    Let's be real here. They don't give a shit about people on SNAP.

    This is all just a ruse to appease his base of jackasses that get mad while in line at Walmart because the family in front of them has the gal to buy real meat with food stamps while they have to settle for Bubba burgers because them illegals took thier job at the coal mine.
     

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