Hobby Lobby decision now used as a shield for child labor violations

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Explorer, Sep 19, 2014.

  1. Explorer

    Explorer He seldomly knows...

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    FLDS Successfully Cites Hobby Lobby Decision in Child Labor Suit

    So now, a religious group possibly engaged in illegal child labor violations can rely on the Hobby Lobby decision to shield its leadership from being revealed.

    Someone had previously argued that the Hobby Lobby decision couldn't be used to discriminate against certain parties. However, apparently one can apparently use the Hobby Lobby decision to keep other crimes under wraps.

    Your thoughts?
     
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  2. TRENCHLORD

    TRENCHLORD Banned

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    It doesn't really say how the investigation came about.
    Were the alleged "victims" filing suite for unpaid wages, or were the adults just donating their's and their children's labor to the church?
    In other words; Who initially had a problem with the arrangement?
     
  3. Watty

    Watty Naturally Cynical

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    Does it matter?

    It's like saying, "well, if the sweatshop workers weren't the ones to complain about it...."

    Edit: Read it again and to supplement the above...if this doesn't make you think LDS is a cult, I don't know what will. The statement could replace "FLDS member" with "gang member" and be exactly the same from a practical standpoint.

    Edit: Also "Vergel Steed"....may as well be "Virile Steed." Applies too, with all the ....ing breeding they do.
     
  4. Explorer

    Explorer He seldomly knows...

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    Let's say the Church of Satan was concerned about the welfare of the children, and wanted Child Protective Services to look into the arrangement to be sure no laws were violated.

    Does that make any difference whatsoever?

    What about if it's the grandparents of the children, who are worried about their grandchildren being used as unpaid child labor by a cult?

    Does that make any difference?

    We're not talking about it getting to the point of, "Was this an arrangement to donate child labor to a church?"

    Instead, it's about, "So, under whose oversight was this happening?"

    "Freedom of religion! We don't answer to the secular government when it comes to child welfare!"

    I'm totally steeling myself for Trenchlord embracing the stance of the former leader of the Fundamentalist Church of Latter Day Saints, Warren Jeffs, who is currently serving a sentence of life in prison plus 20 years for felony child sexual assault. (I don't think Jeffs was brought to trial for sodomizing his nephew, although Warren Jeffs was charged with incest at least once.)

    So, the circumstances are that there is a religious group which had previously exploited children, and now there is an attempt to see if children are being exploited again. The government is attempting to make sure the children are not being exploited, and the religious group is doing its bet to stop the investigation, just as they attempted to stop the government from bringing justice for those children previously.

    I'm hoping that I've totally misread where Trenchlord's sympathies might liay.
     
  5. TRENCHLORD

    TRENCHLORD Banned

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    Yeah you guys are totally making false assumptions again, when all I did was ask a question that might or might not pertain to the legalities. :lol:

    I haven't sympathies for either side if I don't understand how the case came about, as that's just part of knowing the full story before judging it.




    In Explorer's mind asking a legal question = embracing fooking Warren Jeffs? :scratch: Surely not.:lol:
     
  6. Explorer

    Explorer He seldomly knows...

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    Trenchlord, I guess it didn't occur to me to have sympathy for anyone except for children who might be exploited. That's the mechanism which kicked this off, and a religious defense has stopped that investigation.

    You've been asked before, but it's worth asking again:

    Does it matter who brought a possible problem of kids being exploited to the attention of authorities, or should authorities just verify that everything is okay?

    Remember, if everything is okay, that's it.

    And, if things are not okay, then the kids are protected.

    When talking about "sides," I do believe that most would have sympathy for those kids, and would take *their* side, and would be in favor of those children being entitled to the protection of the law.

    The Warren Jeffs thing comes up because the FLDS has previously used the freedom of religion claim with children. It's those parallels which are pretty obvious to most... but again, ti's only most who can perceive that, just as it's only most who would be in favor of advocating for children.

    Again though, because I'm interested in the reasoning:

    Does it matter who brought a possible problem of kids being exploited to the attention of authorities, or should authorities just verify that everything is okay?
     
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  7. The Q

    The Q The Engineer

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    The decision was a can of worms to begin with. If it were to happen here (despite us using Civil Law instead of Common Law), it would be shot down immediately as unconstitutional as well as probably violating established EU and national laws too.


    I can't believe this idiotic decision was upheld. Now everyone can evade the law with the excuse being "it's my religion", just because they say so. Morons.
     
  8. TRENCHLORD

    TRENCHLORD Banned

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    You just answered your own question to an extent.

    If it's a "possible" problem then how can you make the determination of exploitation? :lol:

    Still need to know if the complaint was made by any of the alleged "victims" of this "possible" exploitation. It matters as to the arrangement of the services performed.

    If the children were under parental supervision and their safety and well being were never compromised, and most importantly if it was all under voluntary status, then who are you or anyone else to call it "exploitation".


    On the other hand, if the work was performed with payment expected, or under some sort of coerced circumstance, and/or without parental consent, well then by all means that's an entirely different kettle of fish.

    I wouldn't want to see kids being "used" to maximize profits any more than the next guy, but without knowing the details of the arrangement it's still really hard to make that determination of "exploitation".

    Given the history of the group involved, it's probably a damned good idea to look into the matter, so to that extent I think we agree.
     
  9. Explorer

    Explorer He seldomly knows...

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    For those interested:

    This page has the video of the news story, and you can see for yourselves the children working and being herded by a few adults, including the children apparently being directed to run away from the news cameras.

    Warren Jeffs child labor? – Anderson Cooper 360 - CNN.com Blogs

    According to the news report, Warren Jeffs ordered from prison that FLDS schools be closed, and the children sent to work on a private pecan ranch. There were a few adults, but it was mostly children without their parents sent to work on the ranch.

    The owner of the ranch is not an FLDS member, and the rance is a for-profit venture, so the idea that the ranch is part of the religion has no support.

    It is also interesting that the city hall employee wouldn't even open the door, and said that he had no statement and that he already knew what the reporter was going to ask about. That a public office could be shut down to protect a private religion's possible exploitation of children is scary.

    For those interested in what started the case, I highly recommend watching the story.

    (omg those waves of children running away to protect the operation from scrutiny....)
     
  10. asher

    asher So Did We

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    Illegal child labor is illegal child labor whether the parents assent to it or not.
     
  11. Explorer

    Explorer He seldomly knows...

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    I've got to say, I'm disappointed that TRENCHLORD hasn't responded again since I posted that helpful video which showed exactly what sparked the investigation.

    Is it possible that TRENCHLORD is trolling, and then dropping out when he can't defend what he actually wants to say because polite society would look unkindly upon particular attitudes?

    it's like that skewed attitude that Fox News shows about freedom of religion... except those cases where they don't report it because they don't agree with the religion being defended.
     
  12. Skippy Twinkletoes

    Skippy Twinkletoes Banned

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    Just looking at your statistics it seems as though your activity involves mostly startin controversial & inflammatory topics in this section while he seems to post mostly about guitar and junk... jus saying...
     
  13. asher

    asher So Did We

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    First post in the "hello".

    Second post in PC&E having supposedly snooped through poster records.


    Hmmmmm....

    ed: looks like I was right again :wallbash:
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2014
  14. Explorer

    Explorer He seldomly knows...

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    Eric Christian, Lance Thrustgood, Theodore Skragus, and now Skippy Twinkletoes... the irony of Eric Crhistian breaking the rules multiple times, getting banned, breaking the rules again and again to make one identity after another in order to come on Sevenstring.org to troll the Politics & Current Events forum...

    All that effort to troll one sub-forum, and then saying that others should "post mostly about guitars and junk..." is just hilarious.

    Sadly, all that effort will never be devoted to actually understanding the actual science of climate change, or any of the other science which Eric is opposed to.

    ----

    Now, back to the main topic:

    Convicted pedophile leader of religious cult orders schools closed form jail so children can be made to work on non-church-related for-profit farm. Attempts to protect the children thwarted by the Hobby Lobby decision, which shields certain civil liberty violations, including child welfare, from scrutiny.

    (omg... do you think this was one of those issues where eric christian is completely on board with, kids not having rights?)
     
  15. ElRay

    ElRay Mostly Harmless

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    You know, the alleged crime isn't the scary/problematic part. Crimes like this happen all the time

    The problem is that the supposedly limited to closely held corporations ruling has been expanded to include pretty much anybody with a religious belief being required to do anything. Given the ruling, somebody could say, "According to my religious beliefs, I cannot comply with the subpoena and provide the courts with all the fiscal evidence they're asking for in the trial of Mr. E. X. Tortionist" or "Sorry, my religious beliefs prevent me from providing any medical evidence against Mr. A. S. Sault and Mrs. B. A. Ttery"
     
  16. Explorer

    Explorer He seldomly knows...

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    I do hope that this will be one of those Supreme Court decisions which makes its way back to the Supreme Court. I can't imagine that a religious shield against human rights abuse charges of any kind should stand.
     
  17. TRENCHLORD

    TRENCHLORD Banned

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    And you don't think I already say exactly what I want to say? :lol::lol::lol: Where have you been all this time Explorer?



    Anyways, I watched the video.
    Kids are likely having a blast (for the first few hours anyway), and vacation from school makes it even better for them :lol:, however, if it conflicts with their state's labor laws and/or school attendance requirements then that's a problem I agree.

    Didn't sound like CNN was too sure yet as to where the ranch's profit go (other than claims of off-camera/off-the-record statements) and to what arrangement there is for the payment of services.
    It all just really does depend on their state's specific laws as to what is considered a "for profit" and "not for profit" operation.

    My guess is that these guys (the ranch owners and the church organizers) ARE INDEED using the kids as a cheap labor "for profit" tool, and that the church is only getting a portion(kickback) of the total profits from the harvest.

    The specific % of the profits being donated might or might not make a difference in determining the operation's status. It's a state law thing.



    IF it were proven to be a not-for-profit operation to raise money only for the church then what makes it so much different than a school organized bake-sale, or cheerleader carwash:cool:, activities in which labor is volunteered and profits are raised for various activities like sports and class trips?
    Now pulling the kids out of school for a week might be a problem but again it depends on their state's educational program's system. As long as they make the days up later it might not be a problem at all.
    Some schools around here for example give excused days off for the beginning of deer-hunting season, which IS damned near like a religion to these rednecks :lol:.


    The video made it look like much about nothing to be quite honest, however, if the business owners and church organizers are using the kids to gain an unfair profit advantage over other ranchers/orchards, then it could be both a business-law and child labor law violation. I guess we'll see.



    Obviously those investigating will need either more of a paper trail and/or some DOCUMENTED testimony to prove what we all most likely suspect, which is that it's a dirty operation.
     
  18. Explorer

    Explorer He seldomly knows...

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    In reading quite a bit more from Fox 13, the Salt Lake City affiliate, I discovered that the FLDS has a few irons in the fire regarding lawsuits brought against it.

    I had no idea that there have been ongoing cases to get law enforcement in that area away from the control of the FLDS. It doesn't surprise me, given how the Office of Public Records denied access to that reporter because the FLDS told the ofice to bar access to public information.

    ----

    There is actually a different standard of proof when it comes to preventing harm: Verify that things are all right, using a common-sense standard.

    That's how child protective service actions happen, and how people get protective orders.

    In the case of children being ordered out of school for a week to work, that's one of those actions which violates a host of laws in the US which protect children. It doesn't matter if the kids are glad to do it or not.

    Must a child be paid for labor? Must you have an open process in place to verify wages and to keep the hours worked within the limit?

    Even kids working on TV and film have to maintain their academic work, and must do a certain amount of schooling during the week. The parent doesn't have the right to say that, well, it's fun acting, so no school for you!

    And absolutely no parent can decide that a child will just be pulled out of school unexcused, let alone a religious leader decide that schools will be shut down to make kids work. And, if the ids are working, there has be to work permits for underage labor, and the organization using the child labor has to have open documentation after following the laws regarding such a work force.

    There are exceptions for a family-owned business, but not for a religious organization. I don't think you're arguing that all those families owned that pecan ranch, since that wouldn't be true, so that argument is off the table.

    It seems like the arguments against testifying in this case are much the same as against testifying against the child sexual assault cases (including sodomy of his underage nephew, not just the underage marriages) against Warren Jeffs, who ordered the children out of school and to the fields.

    Creepy cult is creepy.
     
  19. Explorer

    Explorer He seldomly knows...

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    I was just reading up on the recapture of Lyle Jeffs, and found that there were limits later put on the FLDS' ability to claim religious exemptions from judicial subpoenas.

    Here's the news items in chronological order.

    http://www.sltrib.com/blogs/polygamy/1580933-155/amp-labor-department-church-flds-ranch

    http:/www.sltrib.com/news/2381941-155/judge-finds-warren-jeffs-brothers-in

    http:/abcnews.go.com/US/flds-church-members-fined-million-alleged-child-labor/story?id=30916213

    So, it turns out that the FLDS members were found to be in contempt of court for ignoring the aubpoenas, and finally fined close to 2 million dollars for this particular violation of child labor laws under the guise of religious freedom.

    Additionally, the FLDS leadership is charged with defrauding food stamp programs for over 12 million dollars; while the church's poorest and least favored members were starving, the leadership and the favored members ate steaks, lobster, and used mney laundered from the program to buy vehicles like $30,000 trucks.

    Apparently Trenchlord has been banned at this point, but it's worth pointing out that his spirited defense of not defending those without the power to speak for themselves failed in this specific case. Me? I'm always grateful when society protects its weakest members.
     
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  20. CrazyDean

    CrazyDean SS.org Regular

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    After reading the articles and watching the videos on ABC, it's pretty clear the FLDS is a cult. Although, I don't think that was apparent at first, which I assume is what Trenchlord was getting at.

    The article wasn't all that clear on specifics of the child labor. For example: spending Saturday afternoon with your family picking pecans with the church isn't a human rights violation. However, the real story was that children were getting called out of school to go and earn money for the church. That's a cult.
     

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