Gibson heading towards default

Discussion in 'General Music Discussion' started by Dredg, Aug 25, 2017.

  1. ArtDecade

    ArtDecade Unhindered by Talent

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    Two different sources? This whole thread is about Moody downgrading the stock. I think we might have to assume that Moody's did the research into their revenue streams.
     
  2. GuitarBizarre

    GuitarBizarre Listen to physics.

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    I googled Gibson revenue and found the link I posted. In what universe do you live where that isn't another source?

    At this point I'm starting to question whether you can even read. With every successive post your grasp on the language seems weaker and weaker.
     
  3. ArtDecade

    ArtDecade Unhindered by Talent

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    Not all sources are equal. And, just because I don't think your personal opinions are somehow an important reflection on Gibson's finances doesn't qualify as a personal attack, but continue with the ad hominem nonsense if it makes you feel better, because I really don't care.
     
  4. diagrammatiks

    diagrammatiks SS.org Regular

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  5. Andromalia

    Andromalia Pardon my french

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    I don't think so. There aren't many explorer models to begin with, and this one is the only one with a unique color burst and binding they've issued for ages with possibly some Brendon Small stuff (didn't follow exactly what happened with this one)
    It has nothing to do with the quality of the guitar which for all purposes and intent plays like a Gibson explorer.
    Mind you, I could be wrong, because I'm just guessing. But I'd guess (again) that my guess is on the right track. I wouldn't be surprised to se those sell in the 5K+ range 20 years from now, exclusive of inflation.
     
  6. GuitarBizarre

    GuitarBizarre Listen to physics.

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    I'm sure you don't, thats why you've spent the last, page of this thread refusing to let someone else's view on the situation be equivalent to your own, and forcing that person to wheedle your justifications out of you bit by bit instead of you feeling obligated to back up what you're saying whatsoever.

    It's also amusing that you're resorting to calling ad hominem now. Here's another tip for you - Ad hominem is where someone tries to make an arguing point out of an aspect of your character that isn't relevant to the conversation.

    For example, saying someone's opinion is worthless because of their poor financial management, in an argument about whether cats are better than dogs. That would be ad hominem.

    But saying someone's opinion is worthless because of their poor financial management, in an argument about how to effectively manage household finances, would not be, as that aspect of their character casts clear and reasonable doubt on the validity of their advice.

    Nothing I've said about you so far has been anything other than a description of exactly what you're doing, thus, not ad hominem. Also, you've very much been engaging in ad hominem yourself, along with demonstrating that you aren't capable to delineating between what a source is and what a source you believe is not credible is, appealing to authority (via references to your age), etc.

    If we're going to go down the roads of who has committed x or y logical fallacy within their arguments, I'm more than confident I'd come out far, far ahead in the discussion thus far.

    But of course, keep saying you "really don't care" - I rather suspect there'll be a swift reply from you to this post to show exactly how little you mean that.
     
  7. Casper777

    Casper777 Slow Player

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    Wow this thread turned to a mess LOL

    Well, just to update people, the Gibson bond collapsed further since August, making it highly impossible for the company to refinance next August. At current level, the cost if refinancing would be 40%! The bond is now Junk-labelled.
    Highly doubt Gibson would be able to reimburse the USD 375 million debt either.

    Likely outcome is either banckruptcy, a drastic restructuring program (read massive firing) or acquisition by another healthier company.

    But it seems that from a Financial point of view, the company has been very poorly managed, to say the least.

    EDIT: Oh and to add to that, the company also must pay the bond semi-annual coupon next January, or approx. USD 16.6 millions. If they are to the point of not even enough cash, the story could end even sooner.
     
  8. GuitarBizarre

    GuitarBizarre Listen to physics.

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    I also suspect that the figure in question includes all of Onkyo and TEAC's revenue, not adjusted for the size of Gibson's shares in those companies.
     
  9. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    I'm not sure how they approximated $1.2G in revenue for the portfolio, other sources have 2016 revenue for the flagship brand under $200M (z.B. http://www.hoovers.com/company-info...ncial.gibson_brands_inc.b1826f5356393af3.html)

    Of course, that number is absolutely on par with Fender's reported revenues, and the reports of Gibson's YTD revenue is on track with previous years. It might be that the company is spending excessively. I don't believe there is any public information about their R&D budget, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was substantially higher than their competitors, given the large number of new technologies they've adapted.
     
  10. Zalbu

    Zalbu More time than skill

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    If Gibson just put out a flat black and flat white Epiphone and Gibson Explorer at varying price points then they'd make enough money to be able to buy both Fender and PRS two times over. That's what the kids who get into metal and listen to Metallica want, I know for sure that I wanted one but I got an RG instead and don't regret it a second. Just focus on the workhorse models, that's what the brand built their legacy on, not stupid gimmicks like robot tuners.
     
  11. CrazyDean

    CrazyDean SS.org Regular

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    Ha! New technologies...

    I'm sure their cashflow is high through the R&D department, but they're not exactly pushing the envelope.
     
  12. ArtDecade

    ArtDecade Unhindered by Talent

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    Not exactly. They went from 300 million to 1.2 billion in about 4 years. That is a substantial jump.
    More info would be needed in regards to capital flow and how much debt was taken on during this period, but it doesn't look good.
     
  13. Fathand

    Fathand Tube Snake Boogie

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    Jazz people on other forums are wishing for Heritage to buy the Gibson brand. I'd say that would be a bit far fetched (just for the size difference), but I could get behind that.

    Gotta start hoarding those older 90s Gibsons.. before they go up in price more..
     
  14. Chokey Chicken

    Chokey Chicken mouth breather

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    No, they're pushing the envelope. Just not in a way that's meaningful to most players. Nobody really cares about adjustable brass nuts, built in guitar effects, or robot tuners. People are more interested in practical things like SS frets, longer (or shorter) scales. Multi-scales, stable necks, etc. Gibson wasn't really solving any problems with their wider necks, brass nuts, and robot tuners.

    I'd be WAY more than happy to drop some good cash on a 25.5"+ explorer... Especially if it had seven strings. Whereas if I buy a currently offered gibson, it's not going to be because of any of the weird shit they put in. I like Gibson guitars, but there is very little variety in specs.
     
  15. tedtan

    tedtan SS.org Regular

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    According to the Hoovers link, "Gibson Guitar is owned by executives Henry Juszkiewicz and David Berryman", so it's probably safe to assume that they are managing the company for the benefit of their personal finances rather than those of the company.


    According to the same Hoovers link, they currently have $18.8M cash on hand (as compared to $23.3M in 2016), so they are not in the best shape, but they're not dead in the water, either.
     
  16. tedtan

    tedtan SS.org Regular

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    That kind of growth is probably from acquisitions, which is also a likely reason for the debt they've taken on.
     
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  17. HeHasTheJazzHands

    HeHasTheJazzHands greg rulz ok

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    They DID release black and white Explorers under the Epi brand. The 1984 Explorers.

    [​IMG]
     
  18. GuitarBizarre

    GuitarBizarre Listen to physics.

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    You said it yourself - under Epiphone (And with very little promotion).

    There *were* some 1984 style Gibson explorers released by Gibson under the "Guitar of the Month" series way back when, but those were the ones I referred to earlier when I said that I saw a guy get 3 of them with different major faults. Awful reputation.
     
  19. HeHasTheJazzHands

    HeHasTheJazzHands greg rulz ok

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    Yes, I said Epiphone because he did say Epiphone. So I was just saying Epiphone did release it. :lol:

    And yes the Gibson ones were supposedly junk.
     
  20. Andromalia

    Andromalia Pardon my french

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    Well, the Epiphones are also supposedly junk, from the various reviews I could read.

    Overall I think the best cash grab they could make would be to use the Gibson headstock on epiphones.
     

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