As I Lay Dying are back with the classic lineup

Discussion in 'General Music Discussion' started by BusinessMan, Jun 8, 2018.

  1. Fred the Shred

    Fred the Shred Shrederick

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    Man, that is one hell of a scenario. No emphasis on rehabilitation? So that's basically just a "we got him off the streets for [amount of time]" procedure with no intent to help prevent reincidence - hardly what I'd call "brilliant".
     
  2. Edika

    Edika SS.org Regular

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    @Fred the Shred I understand the point you and some other people make about rehabilitation, reform and forgiveness. I just think it's something he has to earn and not be handed to him in a silver platter that a lot of people seem to be doing. He is a public figure and his income is based on public acceptance, it's not like he was an employee in a company or a tradesman. Theoretically everyone deserves a second chance and they should get it. But trust must be earned.
     
  3. Fred the Shred

    Fred the Shred Shrederick

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    But of course - I am not some sort of believer in near-instant infallible rehabilitation, else we'd have no crime reincidence as the prison would function as some sort of enlightenment dispenser then (not that I'd mind that, but let's be realistic... :lol: ). I simply don't believe in a social paradigm that defends the reintegration of the offender if said offender isn't helped in terms of his journey to rejoin society and society itself rejects him out of principle.
     
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  4. PunkBillCarson

    PunkBillCarson SS.org Regular

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    I mean if you want to put it like that, how about actually giving him a chance to earn it instead of everyone just assuming the worst right off the bat? You say a lot of people are handing him that on a silver platter, what about the people who aren't who seem to be condemning him in droves?
     
  5. groverj3

    groverj3 Biologist/Guitarist

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    Yes, that's pretty much what happens here. The prison system was originally created based on the idea that if you lock someone away and "make them think about their crimes" they'll get better all on their own. Obviously they give lip service to rehabilitation today, but it's not really worked into the system as a priority.

    Then there's the racial and socioeconomic disparities in incarceration rate for the same crimes. Additionally, the system comes down HARD on people for drug offenses. Harder than some violent crimes. There are people in prison for posessing marijuana longer than Tim was.
     
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  6. OliOliver

    OliOliver SS.org Regular

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    True, trust needs to be earned, but some people in the thread don't want to give him that chance. He's been making music his entire adult life, this is probably all he knows. I don't see why he shouldn't be able to pursue his career in music again. Afterall, it's down to his sales figures to decide whether or not he does in fact get to, so I guess we just have to wait and see what happens on that front.
     
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  7. 7soundz

    7soundz SS.org Regular

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    Time will indeed show whether he is genuine or not. It's funny how when we make our own slip ups (big or small), we always want to be given another chance but find it difficult to extend the courtesy to others. Everyone has the right to make their choice but I hope we can handle it when we are the ones being judged. The internet seems to thrive of a "mob" like social justice crusade without having all the facts about a particular situation.

    Perhaps the best way I can describe my own view of the matter is that I'm cautiously optimistic until proven wrong.
     
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  8. feraledge

    feraledge Heard the Good News about Maple Fretboards?

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    Big "my bad" if someone ends up getting killed in the end.

    The whole thing keeps swirling around the idea that if you support the idea that people can be rehabilitated (which I do and which the prison system seriously does not foster), that what he did is on the redeemable spectrum (which it doesn't have to be), and that he should be given a chance again.
    Cool, he's out of prison, he's going to need to work, but the rockstar life/dream is doled out to very few people and typically brings out the worst in them. Probably why he got all 'roided out in the first place and tie that to a shit personality and you get him wanting to have his ex killed.
    Can those defending him not see that there's a gulf between giving him a chance to not have someone murdered and sticking him on massive stages where young kids are going to look up to him? He's a goddamn rockstar. If he finds redemption/salvation, he'll become upheld even more, but there's nothing healthy about that situation.
    He wants to earn respect, cool, volunteer at women's shelters and take a shit job. Don't think you deserve to still be a rockstar.
    And to the people who think they're sticking it to the "SJW"s by supporting him, really? Not just how, but why?

    I still think the whole thing is bonkers. If he freaked out and killed someone, I'd be far more inclined to think there's something about him that could be changed. He plotted to have his wife killed by someone else. That's so fucked. By all means, let's give this guy a bunch of money again to see how it unfolds in round two, right?
    Lest we forget, money and fame (even on such a small scale) are no less addicting than drugs.
    If he wants to really earn respect, he needs to know what he did isn't going to be wiped away with some prayers and good behavior. He shouldn't be seeking redemption, he should just stop being a shitty person. I don't see how getting the band back together is anywhere near the path forward if that's his intent.
     
  9. GunpointMetal

    GunpointMetal SS.org Regular

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    Obviously a solid 50% plus of the original fan base could care less As loNg aS HE sCreAm GoOD....
     
  10. Ordacleaphobia

    Ordacleaphobia Can only power chord

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    If it were you, would you pass on being a touring musician to flip burgers? And "I wouldn't be in that situation because I wouldn't hire a hitman," is not a valid answer because the reality of the situation is that he did and he had to make that call when he got out.

    Look- I get it, I've said it earlier in this thread, I am totally on board with not supporting him on principle. But I don't think that we can say "You don't get to play music anymore."
    I think the free market should do it's work. If he doesn't have an audience, he doesn't have a career as a musician.
    I'm not arguing that you're wrong about that environment either- insanity is doing the same things over and over yet expecting different results. Why would we expect a positive change in his life when he's going through the same motions as before? I mean really, all you have to do is pop into The Faceless' thread and read about Keane for a few minutes to validate everything you said about the touring environment. I just don't think that's a call that we get to make for him.

    And I'm not sure I agree that it's less likely that he's changed because it was premeditated.
    Stuff like this is a very, very harsh reality check. When he set everything up, he was probably living in his own world doing his own thing, and didn't think for a second that any of it would have consequences. Once reality comes slamming down on top of you like that (nothing says "guess who isn't special" quite like a prison sentence), you start realizing things really quickly. To run with the rehabilitation example, most of the former gangbangers and such that you see that actually manage to turn their life around and do something positive only do so after they either get caught, or something really, really heavy snaps some sense into them. I think it's definitely possible that Tim had a real case of snowflake syndrome and a bitch-slap from the justice system could potentially have set him straight.

    At this point I don't think he wants respect. I think he just wants to make music.
     
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  11. feraledge

    feraledge Heard the Good News about Maple Fretboards?

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    It is entirely a valid answer. I don’t care what life is preferable for him, there’s no contesting what he did. And trust me, I have had the threat of prison wielded against me for political reasons before. A number of my friends have done hard time for protest actions and they have to deal with how hard life after prison can be. But that’s why the reason he went matters. Some of the best people I have interviewed for positions came out of prison: people who saw the path ahead and were ready to work harder because of it. And a lot of those people had pretty bullshit charges. He gets to play rockstar again? Yeah, I don’t get it. And saying I wouldn’t have my ex killed is beyond a reasonable response to this.
    I don’t think this is that complex. Plotting the murder of a (formerly) loved one is such a uniquely depraved scenario that you can’t just dismiss it.
     
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  12. Ordacleaphobia

    Ordacleaphobia Can only power chord

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    But nobody is dismissing it. Personally I think he should still be in prison and I'm dumbfounded that his sentence was under 10 years.

    But you mention that some of your best interviewees had served time- doesn't that kind of speak volumes to what a good reality check can do?
    It sounds like you're saying that he should only be allowed to flip burgers.

    Imagine if people said that about your friends.
    If someone you know was locked up for bullshit, trumped up charges, written to sound far more severe than they were, and when they got out, people proudly exclaimed that they should only be allowed onto the first rung of the societal ladder. By NO means am I equating anything in this hypothetical to what Tim did, but the principle is still there.

    Would this be as big of a deal if he were a doctor? If Tim was a neurosurgeon bringing in $500,000 a year and got arrested and paroled for the same thing, would it be as big of a deal if he went back to being a surgeon making...I dunno, $350,000 a year? At the end of the day, it's just a profession. It's just what he does. I don't follow why we're seemingly more mad about this than the fact that he's out of prison in the first place.
     
  13. downburst82

    downburst82 SS.org Regular

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    Just because I think its certainly relavent and I dont think it has been posted yet.

    This is Tim's statement from December 2017


    And the Lyrics to the new song


    While its certainly fair to have doubts about his apologies being genuine...he made his apologies and didn't place the blame on anyone but himself, thats always the right way to start.
     
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  14. feraledge

    feraledge Heard the Good News about Maple Fretboards?

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    @Ordacleaphobia You keep tossing out this or that scenarios...
    It's not even a reality check. I had a guy that our company couldn't insure because he lost his driver's license over unpaid child support. He did time for that. Wasn't able to work because he couldn't drive (trucking in his past), wasn't able to pay child support because he couldn't work, then was barely able to get shit jobs because he got out of jail. What's the reality check for that dude? Because tons of people end up in that situation (not saying people who don't pay child support are some kind of unsung hero!), but it comes down to who has money to pay for the better lawyer.
    But a lot of the dudes I interviewed worked shit jobs. I'm not saying that anyone should have to, but why does Tim get a leg up because people are more willing to give him the benefit of the doubt even though, objectively speaking, he doesn't deserve it?
    I'm not saying he should have to flip burgers, I'm saying don't put him on stage and give him a pay check because he wrote a song about how badly he screwed himself over by trying to get his ex-wife killed.

    They do say that. People say that about all prisoners! Someone gets busted with a little weed and people are ready to condemn them forever if they couldn't afford the right lawyer. I'm not saying any of that is okay, but that circumstances matter. I don't think the system is fair and I don't think the way people see prisoners-as-prisoners is okay. But that's an argument for uneven justice here, are people more willing to give a 'roided out white dude who was semi-famous in a scene more of the benefit of a the doubt than anyone else? Why? What he did was largely way worse.
    And to clarify it further, what happens in these cases is that having gone to prison doesn't mean you're the worst person, but you have to live with being caught. Anytime I saw odd breaks in employment, I knew I could piece together their low points in ways that other people just lied about. There was one dude who just had an abrupt shift in careers that seemed odd. Here he was some pedo-high school teacher. Disgusting stuff. But I don't think he did any time at all, but a registered sex offender. He tried to get teenage girls to lick chalk dust off his fingers. Again, unequivocally, you should demand a much greater burden of proof to think that dude has changed. In my eyes, Tim is closer to that dude than just about anyone else I know out of prison.

    Yeah, it'd be a MUCH bigger deal. Are you telling me you would take your loved one to a neurosurgeon if you knew they had done time for trying to solicit the murder of their spouse? Now that's just crazy.
    And for the record, when richer people actually do time, you know what they did was FUCKED.
     
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  15. Andrew Lloyd Webber

    Andrew Lloyd Webber Part-time Elon Musk impersonator

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    We need to break down the barriers, fight stigma and discrimination, and ensure total inclusiveness in the struggle against AIDS.
     
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  16. KnightBrolaire

    KnightBrolaire gearwhoricus americanus

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    shitstorm: the thread

    i dig the track and could give two shits about him trying to kill his wife.

    come at me brah
     
  17. Vyn

    Vyn Not a Sparkly Vampire Contributor

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    @feraledge I think @Ordacleaphobia is less so trying to change your viewpoint and more saying why he has his. I get your opinion, guy knowingly band deliberately tried to get someone killed, therefore trust him with a grain of salt, he's not going to change and doesn't deserve anything for being a scumbag, much less than being able to preform in front of a sold-out metal crowd.

    But, he's out of jail which means he can now try to do something with his life again, and we can sit here online arguing about whether or not he should be able to do so until our keyboards stop working but it's not going to change anything. If you're opposed to it, or even just think that the music is shit, vote with your wallet, nothing wrong with that. If you dig it and doesn't give a shit about what's happened then that's cool too. Whether or not AILD manage to be successful due to the stigma around Tim is another thing altogether but I reckon there's enough AILD fans left who will pay to see them and pay for their music that they will be able to build a career again.
     
  18. PunkBillCarson

    PunkBillCarson SS.org Regular

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    Can't wait till the album hits. I'll buy my copy gladly.
     
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  19. Flappydoodle

    Flappydoodle SS.org Regular

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    ITT: people who are way too easily offended, armchair amateur psychologists, and people who can read minds

    I see it very simply. He's an ex-con, trying to get on with his life. If the music is good, I'll listen. If it's not, I won't.
     
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  20. PunkBillCarson

    PunkBillCarson SS.org Regular

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    You're being far too reasonable about this.
     
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