Anyone on here particularly religious?

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Hollowway, Jul 24, 2017.

  1. High Plains Drifter

    High Plains Drifter SS.org Regular

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    Exactly. I've witnessed enough instances to make me feel as if religion/ Christianity preys upon those that are lost, impressionable, guilt-ridden, mentally unstable, etc. The "Praise Him each and every day" mentality always seemed a bit excessive and dramatic to me as well. On the flip side, I realize that there are other reasons that people attend church services regularly... some reasons genuine, some maybe a bit more self-serving but if worshiping your proclaimed Savior is something that doesn't complicate your life and gives you some added strength or whatever, then I think that's great. In the small conservative town that I live in, I honestly believe that it's mostly about keeping up appearances and showing off your parenting skills by parading the kids around in their cute matching little outfits but whatever on that. For those that are there because worshiping God makes them feel good, then that's pretty cool. But if I'm somehow "below" you or "a bad seed" because I'm not there... well, that's just getting into the entire "sitting in judgment" thing that I do NOT find very healthy nor pure at heart. And I see a good deal of that too. It wasn't hard for me to wash my hands of all this as religion simply never found it's way into my heart. I guess personally, I'd rather have the piece of mind that I'm living my life in a respectful and humane manner and doing so as it relates to my own convictions... regardless of whether or not I will supposedly be judged worthy of an eternity in Heaven. Don't even get me started on things like "loved one's looking down from Heaven" or "purgatory" or any of that nonsense...ugh.
     
  2. pondman

    pondman Build Whore. Contributor

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    I'm not talking about a guy walking the clouds in a white robe with long flowing silver hair and beard.
    Everyone has a passion no matter what it may be, good or bad. A trait that is followed religiously.
     
  3. vilk

    vilk Very Regular

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    >insert my pepsi-squirt analogy again


    It's like saying everyone has a beard since everyone has hair follicles.
     
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  4. Explorer

    Explorer He seldomly knows...

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    There's a lot of people who redefine words in order to bolster false or unsupported claims. The hope is that no one notices and calls it out.

    The best defense against such bad arguments is to call them out directly.
    You're saying "a passion" equals "a god." That's asinine. The two words have completely different definitions.

    You then try to extend the definition of "religiously," meaning "as a regular, unchanging habit," to instead mean "as a matter of faith without evidence, rather than based on available evidence."

    That's bullchit.

    When you have to mislead to prove your point, you only prove you don't have a point.
     
  5. lewis

    lewis SS.org Regular

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    can we just take a minute to think about those churches where people act like they are possessed and the preacher smacks the bitch out of them in the name of religion???

    Like serious whack jobs :lol::rofl:

    also -

    HAHAHA Church of Jungle
     
  6. DistinguishedPapyrus

    DistinguishedPapyrus SS.org Regular

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    Agreed, and also I didn't mean to try to steer this into a pro-religious thread. Just that I'm pretty passionate about the topic and tend to find places to plug my stance in. I took a day or two off of here to clear my head and not be at the ready to throw out crap responses. I just wanna take this back to the original question without a pro and con type bias. Just giving what I have learned from a believers perspective. I don't claim to be an expert on the subject, but my background on the subject is this: I read the Bible daily, have been in various churches on a weekly basis for several years and listened to widely held beliefs from multiple pastors in the Christian religion on a weekly basis as well as having in depth study and conversation with other believers, and from on-line teachings and articles.

    There is ALOT more to it, but in a nutshell:

    From what I know, the 3 main religions of the world, Judiasim, Christianity and Islam, share a common Abrahamic origin. It is believed that there was a man named Abraham from whom all Jews trace their ancestory. Jews mainly follow the Old Testament of the Bible, and don't believe that Jesus was the messiah told about by the prophets. Christians are Jews who became followers of Jesus Christ when he came, believing that he is the messiah that was prophesied about who fulfilled the prophesy and the law. Christians now live under the New Covenant of the New Testament, written by the Apostles. Islam, though there is not a specific verse of geanology in the Bible that I'm aware of, is founded on separate teachings with a little similarity, from a man named Mohammad, whom it is commonly believed is the direct decendant of Ishmael, another one of Abrahams son's. Those teachings are found in the Quaran. These three religions share a belief in an eternal heaven and hell, but have different ways that lead there. It is not believed by either three that the others practice the correct way, nor unbelievers or other non-Abrahamic religions. It is believed that Christians and Jews pray to the same God, and Islam, a different god because of the greatly varying fundamentals of the teachings. It is not seen as a system of everyone going to the same place but through different channels.

    Now about other religions, buddhists, Hindus, tribal cults... I really don't know jack.
     
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  7. vilk

    vilk Very Regular

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    You know that the OT is in the Quran though, right?

    From a Religious Studies standpoint, Allah is absolutely the same God as in Christianity and Judaism. In fact, Arabic speaking Christians pray to Allah, as it's the Arabic word for God. It was the Angel Gabriel who came down and helped Mo out with his first revelation, same dude who came to Daniel in the Torah and Mary in the NT.
     
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  8. DistinguishedPapyrus

    DistinguishedPapyrus SS.org Regular

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    Sorry, double post.
     
  9. DistinguishedPapyrus

    DistinguishedPapyrus SS.org Regular

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    Yes, OT is in the Quran.

    There's more to it though. You'd have to go into the teachings of the New Testament of the Bible and the "New Testament" (not sure exactly what it's called) of the Quran. Christians see God as unwavering in His word, and not of the character to offer various paths to heaven. The Bible prophesied of Christ in the OT, Christ was the Messiah who fulfilled the prophecy, Christ's teachings after OT times are quite different from Mohammad's, and there's debate on who the actual spirit was that spoke to Christ and to Mohammad. It is not generally accepted as the same being by either religion, at least not within the religion. It is Believed that Christ spoke directly to God, and Mohammad spoke to a different being than the God of the OT. Though I understand that it could be taken that way in a general religious study. They all claim heir to an ultimate god. The word Allah in that language must be seen in the context of the person speaking it.
     
  10. Explorer

    Explorer He seldomly knows...

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    You are mistaken about this. It is purely the christians who argue that the muslims are following the wrong deity, while muslims see jesus as a prophet (and not a deity) before muhammed.
    You're engaging in special pleading to give christianity a credibility beyond the others, without actual objective support.

    Here's the funny thing: Judaism has a series of tests for the many wh have claimed to be the messiah, and jesus failed those tests. The jews knew and know those tests because they are part of their scriptures, and christians hilariously forged what they thought were sufficient proofs of the prophecies having been fulfilled... but the jews didn't accept the forgeries, and can still point at what hasn't been fulfilled yet.

    Their own books from yahweh tell them that the prophecies must come true before accepting a messiah's claims, and the prophecies haven't. yahweh didn't say they might come true eventually, which is why the jews are right about jesus not having fulfilled those prophecies.

    As things stand, you have different abrahamaic religions, and different sects within those religions, making claims about why the other religions are mistaken... but all those arguments fall back on the claim that their particular holy texts are the only ones from the *real* god, without any actual strong evidence that any such text *is*.

    The fact that early christian texts got later altered, with stories embellished to make them sound better and more convincing, means there is no "divine" control to prevent such alterations. Mark 16:9-20 is a great example of such an added forgery.

    There's quite a few errors and blatant contradictions in the christian bible, including the two mutually-exclusive nativity narratives, so there's no justification for claiming that it ahould be given any special credence as a factual narrative or as proof of a claim.
     
  11. drgamble

    drgamble SS.org Regular

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    There are several different sects of the Christian religion. My father was Catholic, my mother was Baptist, wonder why that didn't work out. Anyway, my wife was raised Jehovah's Witness. A lot of people think that JW are a cult because they don't believe in the trinity, don't vote, celebrate holidays, don't donate blood, etc. The thing is that a lot of it is based on the bible. The thing that most people don't know is that JW don't believe that they are going to heaven when they die. They hope that they will be resurrected to live on earth as God originally intended. To me, this is an interesting view of the afterlife. Most religions that I have been exposed to all believe in some type of heaven, when according to the bible the earth was created for man to live on for eternity.

    Now as far as my view is, I am more of a science guy. I totally believe that we came about as a matter of chance. Whatever the statistics are in a random universe for life, somehow we are here. I'm not convinced by the bible, it was written by man. I don't know if the accounts portrayed are true or not. I do have my own moral compass, but I don't think that everyone should live the way I do. I have studied various religious texts and I do live my life by many of the principals that are present in religious texts. I think that many of the beliefs with respect to morality just mean being a good person. I really believe in free will, and as a result I would call myself a libertarian? I don't think that the government should restrict behavior that doesn't affect me personally. Take for instance gay marriage, I am a heterosexual male. I married a woman. Now if two men or two women want to get married, who am I to say that they shouldn't do that? Is my life perfect? Are my choices the best?

    I have co-workers that are totally against gay couples adopting children. Most of these views are in the name of religion. The thing is, most of these guys have grown up in a family where mom and dad stayed married for 30+ years. They lived the life of the Clevers as far as I'm concerned. My parents separated when I was 3 years old and I was raised by my father which is rare considering that I was born in 1976 and til this day divorce and custody laws are heavily skewed toward woman. At the age of 27, my future wife at the time, and I took in my future sister and laws children because she had some issues. We raised these kids for 5 years. At the age of 27, with a 15 year old girl I had no idea what I was doing. Furthermore, at that age I had no idea what I was doing with a 5 year child who turned out to be autistic, epileptic, and mentally retarded. Knowing everything I know now, can I say that I am a better fit parent than a well adjusted gay couple? Were my parents better for me than a well adjusted gay couple? I don't know the answers to these questions because I haven't experienced that, but I would have to think that almost anyone is better than the alcoholic, abusive parents that I had growing up, and I can admit that I made a lot of mistakes as a 27 year raising children that were already grown.

    We tried to raise the children in the church, ultimately they rejected all notions of the church and over 10 years later, none of them are particularly religious. My wife still studies with the JW, but I cannot bring myself to study any one religion any more. Most of the religions of the world are a lot like politics in the sense that they operate under the premise that the common man cannot understand everything and we need someone to tell us what it all means. I'm a lot more inquisitive than that and question just about everything. I am an avid reader and I try to learn as much as I can. I am a free thinker and I do not accept the interpretation of one or even several men as truth. I'm the type of guy that will raise a counter argument even if I don't believe in the argument that I am presenting. Consequently, because most of my co-workers are staunch conservatives, they believe me to be a liberal, even though I actually fall somewhere in the middle.

    The answer is that I'm not particularly religious, although I have been exposed to many religions. I do share a lot of the moral code that is promoted through religion, but I differentiate religion from law. The United States was founded on freedom. I don't think that my way of life is the only way that life should be lived. At the age of 40, I can admit that I have made many mistakes in my life, but it is the mistakes that make me who I am. I don't want to tell anyone else how to live their life. As long as a persons decisions don't affect me or anyone else, a person should be allowed to live their life as they see fit.

    As I said, I'm 40 years old, I have no children that I know of. My wife and I tried to have children, even going as far as spending large sums of money on In Vetro and looking into adoption. That being said, I would never agree with abortion in my personal life, but I would not want to restrict someone else from having the option. I would only caution them that they may regret the decision in the future because they may not be able to have children in the future.

    I just have to say that there are lot of people that are particularly religious that seem to want to tell the rest of us how to live. I don't believe it to be Christian or American. If what the Bible says is true, there is only one that can judge me. Do not judge me for my actions, I will be held accountable for my actions in this life. You live you life and I will live mine according to how I see things. I don't know how many different religions and sects there are in the world, but I would have to guess that the number is in the thousands. As imperfect humans, I doubt that there is one religion that has is all right, considering that there is probably no one alive that really understands the languages that the original Bible came from and can even understand how the Bible was canonized from the days of old. I think that there was a lot of stuff lost in translation. In the end, you have to decide how you are going to live your life and apply the basic principles from the Bible. Even if there is no such thing as a higher power, at the very least these things will make you a better person.

    That's some of my take on religion, I could go on for hours, but in the end it doesn't really matter because I encourage everyone to seek out their own answers. If you are truly religious, don't just take what someone else's interpretation as gospel, form your own opinion. In the old days, most people weren't educated. We needed people to interpret the Bible for us. We needed people to write laws for us. I think that with the Millenials, we are reaching an age where there are a lot more educated people that don't need people to interpret things for them. We have information at our fingertips, so much so that there is actually an information overload. These days, the problem isn't having the information, it's discerning fact from fiction. I have a feeling that religion is falling on the wayside. Then again, there are a lot of converts to Muslim and some of them are extremists. Overall, as science advances, I think that the number of religious people will plummet. Then again, is the fall of mankind the result of eating from the Tree of Knowledge?
     
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  12. vilk

    vilk Very Regular

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    There is an inverse correlation between access to education/information and religiosity. So long as we as a society do not begin to change our values so that being educated and having access to information are demeritorious, religiosity will continue to decline...

    ...but then again, more and more among the alt-right do I see people assert that to be educated is a demerit.
     
  13. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    This is great reading.

    Religious debate is always filled with tons of interesting stuff, but, unfortunately, it is also usually filled with a lot of friction between the differences in people's attitudes...

    Going back to the history thing with the "three main world religions..."

    The biggest religion in the world, by far, is Christianity. 2.2 billion followers. Next up is Islam- 1.6 billion. So for every two Muslims, there are three Christians. There are a billion Hindus, 400 million Taoists, another 400 million pagans, 375 million Buddhists, 30 million Sikhs, 15 million followers of Spiritism, and then 14 million Jews worldwide. Judaism is far from being one of the three main world religions.

    Anyway, the modern monotheistic religions pretty much all go back to the Vedas. Zorostrianism, which was a primary influence in Judaism and Islam, split from the Vedas, as did Hinduism. Christianity split from Judaism and Buddhism split from Hinduism and both of those became very different, but the roots all trace back to the same ancient teachings of "do this," and "don't do that" preached in across the middle east and India before written history ever existed.

    More recently, Mormonism, Seventh Day Adventism, Jehova's Witnesses, Eastern Orthodox Christianity, Catholicism, and mainstream protestantism are so far removed from each other that they could be considered separate religions. Shiites and Sunnis and other sects of Islam are deviating from each other more and more.

    Even the fundamental religions, Zorostrianism, Vedic Religion, Paganism, etc, still exist, but are so different in their beliefs now, that they are almost unrecognizable in comparison to their ancient core beliefs.

    Modern Christianity is so far removed from Christ's teachings in the gospel, that 80% or more of the teachings are not even traceable to Jesus, even in the most liberal interpretations.

    But it's not just Christianity. I know anti-religious people go after Christianity the most, and are not far behind in attacking Islam, but those two combined are 4 times larger than the next largest religion, so they are wide targets to go after.

    Next - how religious people are now versus before the information age:

    Even if religious scholars tend to equivocate a lot on historical and religious topics, the general religious population does not. Most Christians believe that every word in the Bible in the infallible Word of God, even if priests, scholars, and monks don't see it the same way. The general Muslim populace tends to be more fundamental than the average Imam, etc....

    Religions are still growing, despite growing more slowly than before the information age. But this growth may continue to slow to the point where it soon dips negative. I don't think the "blame" for this is solely on the internet. I think a lot of it has to do with how stupid and crazy a lot of religious people are getting. I think that every time Westboro Baptist Church pickets a funeral or every time a racist lady in an SUV gets on the news for harassing people over their apparent religion, it turns newcomers off of religion. :shrug:

    Finally, the "Tree of Knowledge:"

    I was just think about that this morning, incidentally, before anyone here mentioned it.

    The story in the Book of Genesis, same as it is in the Pentateuch and in the Quran, is that God made Adam and then set a trap for him. Told Adam to do anything he wanted to do except eat the fruit of this one particular tree. I believe the fruit is a metaphor for a certain bit of information, but, whatever, this allegory works exactly the same either way.

    So, what is the point? Can God truly be this benevolent being if he sets someone up to fail? Mankind is certainly smart enough now to know that this sort of trap is abuse. You wouldn't do the same with a child. Lock the child in a room with a bunch of toys and also a bottle of poison that would kill them and then tell the child to play with whichever toys, but don't eat the poison. It's essentially the same situation, and it's not okay.

    In fact, God in the OT is portrayed as a flat out jerk. He kills people, orders people to kill their own children, tortures the ever-loving crap out of one guy (as a test of that guy's devotion), and so on. None of this is okay. If God was a manager at a company, he would have been fired and locked away.

    If you take the Bible literally, you should route for Satan. It's no joke. God wants you to follow Him, yield your soul to Him, die for Him, etc. Satan just wants to point out the inconsistencies in the scripture, and wants people to think for themselves. He wanted Adam and Eve to eat the forbidden fruit because it was going to open their eyes to the real world. He wanted to get Jesus to abandon his doomed suicide mission. Satan doesn't preach to anyone, and never had widely-circulated books about himself. He doesn't want to take your soul - he just wants you to be an individual. He never tries to get people to kill each other - God does that. So yeah, I don't believe in Satan, but if I read the Bible literally, he's the side I'm routing for.
     
  14. iamaom

    iamaom SS.org Regular

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    Well I guess you have to define what "literally" means, and which bible/translation you're taking literally. In Hebrew "satan" is simply a title that means "opposer" and is taken on by many different angels throughout the old testament who simply disagree with god. God allows them to carry out their acts because he wants to see what will happen, god being all knowing and seeing time as some sort of comic strip is a fairly modern invention.
     
  15. will_shred

    will_shred not that good.

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    iamyouarehesheistheyareweare god

    that's my religion. My beliefs are closer to Zen and Hinduism than anything else, but I don't carry any of the cultural baggage that those religions have attached to them, since I wasn't raised in any of those cultures.
     
  16. vilk

    vilk Very Regular

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    so in other words you're atheist
     
  17. will_shred

    will_shred not that good.

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    No, because I don't deny the existence of spirit. I just think about it differently. All conscious beings share the same consciousness.
     
  18. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    Except me.
     
  19. vilk

    vilk Very Regular

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    But that's different than believing in God.

    Did you get to read my pepsi-squirt analogy?

    You see, it isn't that I don't understand how one might find a way to explain how they could also fit into the category of "theist". What I'm questioning is: Why would you do that?


    I think I maybe just thought of another analogy. This is fresh so you guys let me know what you think.

    Candyists are people who believe that sugar tastes sweet, and that sweet tasting food is candy.
    However, I believe that all food that we consume is ultimately is broken down into glucose--which is sugar, which powers our cells. Therefore, all food is candy.
    Am I a Candyist? I mean, I do believe that sweets are candy. But then again, if I walked up to a Candyist and said "Hey would you like some candy?" and handed them a slice of bread certainly they'd say, "That's not candy."
    If I tell people "I'm a Candyist", will they know that I think bread is candy? Nope, and in fact, they'll incorrectly assume that I think only sweets are candy. So then, why am I even telling people I'm a Candyist?


    --------------------

    As a separate point, it's my opinion that the difference between pantheism and atheism is nil. If literally everything is God, then the significance of the application of the word God is lost. It's like someone saying "Every food is my favorite food"--> I would say that person has no favorite food. In application there is no difference, as that person doesn't like any one food above the rest irrespective of whether you say that all foods are his favorite or that he has no favorite.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2017
  20. will_shred

    will_shred not that good.

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    I don't believe in the all powerful god of ego described by most monotheistic religions, but I think that there is a very real spiritual dimension to life.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2017

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